A Post 8th Amendment world - Culture of Death


A bit O/T but didn’t want to start yet another “culture of death” thread.

Three Belgian doctors are to be tried for killing a 38 year old mildly autistic (but otherwise healthy) woman. They approved her for euthanasia in 2010, but her family subsequently complained.

nytimes.com/aponline/2018/1 … nasia.html

Voluntary euthanasia has been legal in Belgium since 2002, and for children since 2013. There were 80 cases in the first year, rising steadily to about 2,000 a year now, or 1.7% of all deaths. Initially those euthanised were terminally ill cancer patients (and two thirds still are), but a growing number of non-terminally ill people including older people in care are being killed. One sixth are people not expected to die in the foreseeable future.


About 3% of euthanasia cases are for psychiatric disorders, from mood disorders to dementia. The majority of people euthanised for these reasons are women.

bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com … 017-1369-0


That is an interesting post but it should have its own thread.

Conflating these two issues is misleading at best and it deliberately seeks to link abortion with euthanasia which is wrong.


Sure, it’s all the same issue. Killing babies, killing disabled people, killing unwanted daughters in third world countries, dispatching inconvenient lives, selfishness of modern society, slippery slope to Logan’s Run, Nazi death camps, Stalin was an atheist etc etc.

Only God can give life and only God should take it away.


Funny you mention that…unless you’re of the view that the UK is ‘third world’ (although I think ‘developing world’ is the preferred term nowadays).

independent.co.uk/news/heal … 40851.html

The bolded section in particular seems particularly relevant given that the suggestion that it could happen in Ireland was branded a conspiracy theory by some during the course of the referendum thread.

Maybe some people who oppose this stuff are actually genuine in their belief that its an affront to the defence of human rights generally?

And maybe some who decry anything they dislike as a conspiracy are simply agreeable fuckwits?


It would probably play into Harris’ hands if the Pro Life crowd decided to single him out for negative campaign due to his baby holocaust role. He’d love to distract attention from what his actual day job is. He’s clinging to abortion as a good news story because the health service is so terrible. He was on the news the other night saying ‘I just want to be open and prepare people for how bad the winter will be in hospitals’. He just doesn’t get that as a nation we hate being “managed”. Eoghan Murphy doesn’t get this either btw.

I think Harris is just poor. Tony O’Brien’s criticism of him was severe and is one of numerous things that have permanently damaged him. He’s been made look ridiculous and out of his depth. He’ll keep his seat because he has profile but he’ll be Tourism minister after the next reshuffle and out of the cabinet in the one after that. I don’t know if there’s an astronomical term for a young developing star gradually changing to one that’s declining and disappearing, but that’s what we’re witnessing. Unless Leo takes pity on him.


in your opinion. If one chooses to view human life as a continuum from conception to death (i.e. the common-sense and scientific view), they are linked.




Ah yes. She of the compassionate vote.


There’s a word for that, starts with a ‘B’ and ends with something you scratch.


A historical snapshot for the record: According to Wikipedia, the second and highly controversial Lisbon Treaty referendum vote was pushed through by being packaged with assurances tailored for Ireland, guarantees no less, with one specifically relating to abortion and that was enough for the Irish voting public approved the treaty in 2009.


A decade is a long time in a goldfish bowl


Wikipedia also lists a couple of opinion polls taken after the first referendum which asked why people voted ‘no’ in 2008. Abortion didn’t even make the list of reasons in the first opinion poll and was down at 2% in the second, but even then not in its own right but lumped in with euthanasia and same sex marriage. So, while views on abortion may have had some significance in swinging a narrow defeat in 2008 to a narrow pass in 2009, those votes as a whole cannot really be viewed as a barometer of the country’s views on abortion at that time. Military neutrality and loss of influence where much bigger issues according to the polls at the time.


Remind me again: does human life start at conception or implantation?


rte.ie/news/2018/1220/10184 … tion-bill/

And that’s it. Abortion is now legal in Ireland.


Just being legal doesn’t make it right.
And this President is one whose form based on past experience of his form in role is to do as he’s told.

A sad day.


Trojan’s be Torjaning. A lot done. More to do.


He’s obliged to sign it unless he feels that it is repugnant to the Constitution. That’s the role of the President as set out in the Constitution.

Read Article 26 before you post!


I’m just glad that now the women of Ireland wanting to access abortion services will be able to do so without fear or cost or risk like they used to.

here is the helpline and website:

I still can’t quite get over seeing this on a HSE website.
It’s been a long road.


Just thinking that its almost 40 years exactly since I first heard of a girl, not even old enough to call a woman, having to take the boat to England to get an abortion. The overnight bus was the cheapest way to get to London. I think it was about 16 quid. There were informal networks, friends of friends, who would provide the necessary address in the UK when it came time to deal with the NHS. Saying that, it was widely known at the time that the front-line medical staff in NHS hospitals in all the big UK city were very well used to dealing with frightened and distraught young Irish women and dealt with them with the greatest compassion. Except for the occasional Irish RC nurse. But on the whole the NHS did a magnificent job of looking after the women that Ireland had refused to look after. For more than four decades.

So another small step away from the utterly barbaric culture that was Catholic Ireland. Towards a more compassionate and humane society. Still a long way to go. Oddly enough the single biggest advance in the last few decades has been the complete loss of sigma for single mothers. One of the major forces driving women to take the boat to London 30 or 40 years ago. I am thinking in particular of a beautiful little kid, and her mother, who several decades ago could not have the wonderful loving family they now have. There would have been immense social pressure either to give the kid up or take the boat. Although knowing the mother she would have done neither and emigrated rather than buckle to the intense social control of the church. Like quite a few other women did when in that position back then.

Another of the ironies of the situation. If the RC church had not attached such an immense stigma to unmarried mothers then quite a few of those women who had been forced to take the boat would have kept their babies instead. Something to think about, those of you petty minded people spouting your pathetic little pieties. If abortion is “murder” then it was people just like you, with your attitudes, with slavish adherence to the teachings of your church, that created the environment that lead to the “murder” of thousands of babies over the decades. These poor pregnant women were never the problem. It has always been people like you. Yes, you. With your fundamentalist RC beliefs.

So whenever I read this kind of sanctimonious bile in this thread I immediately dismiss it with the contempt it deserves. For a start these people are in no position to try to take the moral high ground on this subject. They are active members and supporters of a church that raped and abused children for decades and to this day actively perverts the course of justice and tries every means at its disposal to cover up its crimes and hide its assets when it comes to paying restitution. Come back when the Irish RC Church hierarchy finally accepts full responsibility in a court of law for the many terrible crimes it has committed in the past against the weak and the innocent. And paid the full price for its many many felonies. Both against the law, and against basic humanity. Then, and only then, can these sanctimonious hypocrites be treated as someone with any kind of valid opinion based on a morality and personal belief.

Almost everyone else, luckily enough, has a much more open minded and humane attitude. Which is why the country is now, with the passing into law of the result of the referendum, just a little bit better than it used to be.


I do sometimes wonder if jmc’s world has anything other than straw men in it. :slight_smile: