A Post 8th Amendment world - Culture of Death


#61

I’ve always thought your posts to be well thought out and generally spot on, but after this post I can’t help thinking that your account has been hacked by an imposter. I think we’re of the same generation and I can certainly remember my parents, and every other parent I knew, working their fingers to the bone just to keep food on the table. I don’t believe the younger generations work harder for less and I certainly don’t think many of them think more about what they want and do. They are being led by the Pied Piper of social media and (so called) celebrities and seem incapable of critical thinking. In much the same way that many from previous generations were led by party politics and the church. And I’m not spouting sour grapes. I genuinely wish the younger generation a better quality of life than we had.


#62

Nobody’s cracking up, although you’ve been the most tone deaf poster to any counterargument on here so it doesn’t surprise me that you think so. Nobody ever wanted to control your uterus, just to save the hapless children that might have drawn the short straw and ended up in it. And while some of us consider it an almost unbearable tragedy, at the end of the day it’s not us that are going to be dissected and suctioned so we’ll survive, thanks very much.

And while I’m on the subject of tone deaf posters … :smiley:
@jmc

I hope there aren’t too many people in the real world who have to put up with your toxicity, although one suspects it’s the reason you’ve been forced to take to the interwebs in the hope of finding an audience. Tragic really, that anyone can end up so bitter, but at the end of the day it’s your shoulder and your chip. Have a good one.


#63

Very well put. To see someone dissing other posters but who themselve yesterday made quite a nasty and snide remark about Donegal people and the house prices there, well 'nuff said.

There’s not much more to be said on this topic. The people have spoken and overwhelmingly so. We will have laws as outlined which are IMO way too aggressive against the unborn.
It’s an undeniable fact that thousands of Irish people are alive today as a result of our ban on abortion. It’s also undeniable that thousands more of healthy babies will be aborted into the future v’s where we are now with 3/4,000 going to the UK every year.
But hey, that’s progress apparently and the sign of a modern nation!!!

I was in town last night to have a few pints and watch the football. The celebrating by the Yes side surprised me. If ever there was an issue not to be hollering and singing about it, I felt this was it. But it was Mardi gras in places around town.

Ps- I find the Catholic bogey man being turfed about here the past few pages astounding. If ever there was a referendum which they ran away from, this was it. It probably tells more about the poster’s prejudices than anything else.


#64

Then you will be fighting against the very logic of elective abortion. But then again, you voted for it, so you can’t really complain when the inevitable consequences finally dawn on you. It’s a terrible pity (and I truly mean that).


#65

They may have but would they know that and appreciate it?


#66

If the bitter no voters don’t like Donegal, they could always try Saudi Arabia. Your ways of thinking would be encouraged there. Abortion is illegal, and it’s open season on having women arrested for all sorts of banalities. You’d fit right in, love it, even.

irishtimes.com/news/world/m … -1.3507041

The rest of the country is moving on, seemingly without you.


#67

The celebrations are strange it’s not like the gay marriage referendum where people were waiting to get married , are people actually celebrating the fact that someone can head out and get an abortion ? It’s bizarre


#68

No there’s no love stories with this one.

But campaigners were mostly young and/or childless women originating from small families themselves. Their life experience of babies is limited. They view abortion access as entirely a healthcare safety issue. We’re not dealing with deep moral thinkers here who’ve looked at it from all angles. It is self evident to them that women’s lives will be easier, safer and as they see it more highly valued in Ireland soon than they were last week. I understand their celebrating when I look at it like that. I was trying to pinpoint my reaction when I saw Repeal sweatshirt wearers out and about in daily life in the last while - I think it’s 70% sadness, 30% primal disgust

In fairness, my reaction to a Save the 8th car sticker is now forever to be reminded of Cora Sherlocks mealy mouthed response to Claire Byrne’s query as to whether the State expects rape victims to carry their rapist’s child - after much evasion she said ‘she didn’t want to add to women’s trauma and the trauma of abortion would add to the trauma of rape’


#69

That’s an interesting comment. I heard similar from a number of women in the run up to the referendum, i.e. bodily integrity, etc, but surely it only holds true if there is abortion up to the point of birth. No? or is it that we will now see a push for abortion up to any point? There may be some interesting times ahead.


#70

Depends what you mean to “the point of birth”. Bodily integrity means not being forced to carry a foetus that is incapable of living outside of the womb.

As for the the gap between 12 weeks and 22+ weeks, well I guess people will have to deal with those restrictions as they did before but it’s a very small fraction of cases.


#71

I think that’s your own interpretation of bodily integrity. My cousin, a man in his mid 50’s, is a campaigner for repeal and he assured me that it meant a woman’s right to choose whether or not she wanted ‘anything’ in her womb at any point, right up to the point of delivery. And he is all set to continue the campaign until that is achieved. Hence my question for croquette. If you believe fundamentally in a woman’s right to choose, surely there cannot be a timeframe on that choice.


#72

Sshhhh! Wait till the ink is dry on the ballot papers before you go stating the obvious! Of course the time limit will be extended. The pro-aborts told us the magic bong of the twelve-week clock marked the supernatural creation of a human person with rights. You don’t think they actually believe that mumbo jumbo? Let’s see how quickly they adopt the pro-life argument – that there’s no fundamental difference between a 10 week old fetus and a 12 week old one. Which means there’s no fundamental difference between a 12 week old and a 14 week old, so why should the latter have rights that the former doesn’t? We’ll see that the bong of the magic clock can be set at will.


#73

theguardian.com/society/200 … ces.uknews

Maybe paternity testing should be a compulsory thing and part of birth. Maybe men should be able to ‘opt out’ of financial responsibility up to 12 weeks.


#74

This is like the rapist victim question. When those who believe that life begins at conception were put on the spot re forcing a woman to carry a rapist’s child they could not justify it in any way to a wider audience.

Equally, someone may well campaign on absolute bodily autonomy and integrity, but they’ll never gain support for terminating a perfectly healthy 38 week old foetus. Apart from anything else there is no way anybody in the medical profession would carry out the procedure.

But I do take your point about extrapolating the fundamental belief. For example I think the arguments for the law against euthanasia and assisted suicide inevitably look a bit weaker now.

Edit to add that personally I do think euthanasia and assisted suicide should be legal.


#75

You’re superimposing your own arguments on those of others, and therefore misrepresenting.

The rights of the child start at birth, when it is legally a person. The limited right of the woman to terminate the pregnancy for any reason will end at 12 weeks, assuming the proposed legislation comes to pass.

I like the sound of the magic bong though.


#76

Can we start a new thread, The 8th Amendment - legislation?

It seems the bitter no voters want to keep up their anti-women tirades (women are ‘merciless’ and ‘not deep moral thinkers’, etc). Can we just allow them to spew their bile to each other here while the rest of us move over to a new thread on the legislation, where women aren’t trashed? Would that be possible? I don’t want to have to wade through the hate and bitterness to reach informed opinions…


#77

The various social liberalisation movements seem to share a common trait. It is not good enough to merely change the rules, but they want to change the way people are allowed to think. The mere holding of a contrary opinion is an offence. Fortunately such mind control is not yet part of the law, but it is not at all certain that this will remain the case. I imagine freedom of conscience will come under immense pressure immediately for certain professions, though banishment to Donegal will hopefully remain a pro-choice fantasy.

EDIT to note that I never generalised (nor would I) about all women being merciless or immoral – only some of them.


#78

The eighth was repealed. It’s now time to talk about legislation.


#79

Yes, I realise you’re one of the magic birth canal people. Which just goes to show that the 12 week limit is completely arbitrary. The supposed right to bodily autonomy is, of course, not at all arbitrary. Once the rights of the unborn are stripped there is no reasonable defence against extending the limit up to birth. (Truth be told, there is no reasonable defence against extending it beyond birth, but that’s another day’s discussion).

Completely bizarre argument. There are people on this very thread telling you that the unborn has no rights whatsoever. What exactly do you think is preventing late term abortions other than the arbitrary whim of the legislature? I’ve noticed that people tend to assume there will be no practices that go beyond their own level of squeamishness. In other jurisdictions there are most certainly doctors – whether motivated by women’s rights or profits – willing to perform such operations.

Also, the time for needing to “gain support” for terminations at any gestational term is over. That just needs liberal legislators. Do you think a government is going to stand or fall based on such changes, any more than on changing the level of DIRT tax? A majority of people in the USA think that abortion limits should be more restrictive. So how did anyone “gain support” for the way things are? Truth is, they didn’t need to. Once you agree with abortion as a matter of principle, few people are going to take particular notice as to where the limits are set, because there is no principled argument either way.

This is all yet to dawn on the people who thought they were voting for “a little bit of abortion” and who actually swallowed those stories about the hard cases.


#80

Is this still a property forum?