A Post 8th Amendment world - Culture of Death


#81

When we worked hard, we had expectations of a career (less so than our parents), a pension (again, less of one than our parents), and a house. The generations after us have less of a hope of all those things. I took hope that my children have a better quality of life than me, but despite their abilities and effort, I fear that it will be my earning that determines when they can move to their own place, not theirs. It’s not just an Irish thing, it’s across the old economies and the US. The FIRE economy, the age-bulge, the gig economy, all these have moved wealth away from people who work for a living to those who already have it.


#82

You what?
Fake comment!
Sad!


#83

Of course there are those calling for abortions to be allowed whatever the circumstances, just as there as those who are against abortion under any circumstances, but I’ve interpreted the majority of YES supporting people on this thread and in real life discussions to consider viability as a red line. i.e there needs to be pretty extenuating circumstances - eg FFA - beyond viability.

What exactly do I think is preventing late term abortions other than the arbitrary whim of the legislature? Exactly that. The legislature is in the hands of the TDs who are not going to allow late term abortions on demand because it will be never be a vote winner.

I try and ignore the extremes on both sides because it’s all angry noise. I am very strongly against unrestricted abortion on demand in Ireland, and now we are going to have it. The people I am angry with are not the YES voters, most of whom I understand to be fairly reasonable people, but the hardcore pro lifers.

If they had been a little more flexible about abortions in some circumstances I don’t think we’d now be looking at the introduction of such liberal abortion laws.

I hope I am wrong about the future of late term abortions, but if I am not, I am in the fortunate position that I can vote with my feet, which is exactly what I’d do if Irish politicians passed laws to allow doctors to terminate third trimester pregnancies on the grounds of bodily integrity.


#84

I think there has been enough debate on this topic to last a lifetime, for weeks now this subject has dominated this forum. I understand that this was a huge emotional referendum for the country and everybody felt they needed to express there point of view but surely half a dozen threads on this subject, on what is supposed to be a property forum, is enough?
The referendum is over now and I believe that if people what to continue with this debate they would be better off finding a forum more suited to it, there’s plenty out there.


#85

Of course.
Economically unproductive women cannot force property prices up
Women denied an abortion were more likely than were women who received an abortion to experience economic hardship and insecurity lasting years. Laws that restrict access to abortion may result in worsened economic outcomes for women.
ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/1 … 017.304247


#86

I’m amused by your complete lack of intellectual discomfort accusing me of magic thinking, considering your moral position comes from the Catholic Church/direct from God (delete as appropriate).

Agreed.

I’m disappointed that you are advocating for unrestricted abortion up until birth (do you mean full term or viability outside the womb?), but I guess there’s space in our society for all sorts of wacky beliefs.


#87

Only because the forum is largely tumbleweed.


#88

Not sure what your blurting out there but this is what I was referring to


#89

careful what you vote for.

the referendum wasnt about the 12 weeks. how long before legislation is passed to put in place to align the abortion regime with that of England? How long before legislation is passed to outlaw abortion altogether?


#90

Given thousands travelled annually, were women in Ireland denied abortion or was the procedure just ‘regionally restrictive’ ?
Also, economically unproductive women can force property prices up, especially if they are all getting €2,100 per month with HAP.


#91

Could some graphics guru overlay a heat map of property prices with a map of ‘Yes’ vote percentage? Feels like they overlap quite a bit. What it means I don’t know! Liberals make more money, buy expensive houses; or money corrupts. Depends on your perspective I suppose!

Re. the legislation, the Heads of Bill were published ages ago and you’d think some preparation must have been made before Saturday. Not much excuse for delaying or changing it.

Even the ever-pragmatic Healy-Raes are saying they won’t stand in the way of the Bill. They saw the boxes opened in their heartland and know they need those votes in the next 6-12 months.

However, if there was an election before the budget or straight after it and FF were in power/coalition, they would have an almighty internal crisis on their hands. Some FF ‘No’ campaigners have already said they wouldn’t oppose legislation.


#92

Indeed. Our abortion legislation could be ever changing. In an attempt to influence the legislation, I spent part of the weekend crafting a letter to my local TD indicating what I think would be acceptable/unacceptable. That person will need my vote soon enough.


#93

Out of interest, are you prepared to share here what you think acceptable/unacceptable?


#94

In my opinion, the main problem with the NO campaign was that they completely failed to address the concerns of the undecideds.
Their own poster stated that [in the UK] 90% of women abort when the foetus has Downs Syndrome, with the tagline Ireland doesn’t want that.
You don’t win referenda by blatantly stating you want to restrict the choice of 90% of women.
In overwhelming numbers, voters chose the the small uncertainty on the YES side to the fundamentalist dogma on the NO.
I found the election strategy of the NO campaign astonishingly naive.


#95

Since when did a TD ever vote in accordance with their constituents? 8-


#96

Plus one to this.

I also beleive that Ronan Mullen single handedly moved lots of undecided to a yes vote with his appearance on Kenny last Wednesday, in particular his " no matter aht you have done" comment. Immense fail.


#97

No. To be honest, I think the best way to approach this at this stage is to lobby your TD, if you care enough, one way or the other.


#98

Rónán Mullen’s comment landed him here:

change.org/p/seanad-eireann … ad-eireann


#99

A bishop was on the radio this morning (Ryan Tubridy? Morning Ireland? can’t remember) saying that human rights shouldn’t be left to democracy. :smiley:


#100

Obviously they were hoping that societal attitudes to aborting helpless babies in Ireland were different to the UK. Turns out they are – they’re worse, as even the UK pretends not to have abortion on demand.

Btw, I don’t think the No side ever thought they stood a snowball’s chance in hell. It was more a case of not being able to stand idly by and say nothing.