AirBnB planning permission Dublin?


#1

Is this the end of short lets in Dublin city?

independent.ie/business/pers … 69131.html

I use AirBnB when I travel, I find it’s a way to obtain a decent place to stay at a reasonable price. Tourism in Dublin is on the up and dramatically so. Hotels are raising their prices at the same rate. Surely, providing quality affordable short term lets is a way to maintain current tourism and secure it’s future?

I just don’t buy the ‘airbnb is in some way responsible for the housing crisis’ theory. The government is responsible for that, nothing has been built in years and it’s just too easy to lay blame on short lets, I feel. Most short let apartments are not suitable for families anyway.

I also find it ironic that Temple Bar residents, of all places, with it’s loud late night bars are the ones that have objected to tourists staying in the area! Without them, the area dies, as I know very little Dubliners who actively frequent the restaurants and bars in the area.

It will be a real blow to our economy if we lose reasonably priced city centre lodgings available to tourists. Dublin is expensive as it is. I have travelled to Amsterdam, New york, and London and stayed centrally in Airbnb apartments. I do not think I would have been able to afford such trips if I was forced to stay in hotels. In Dublin, city centre hotels are over subscribed, that’s a fact! Tourists mainly want to stay locally, it makes sense that they have affordable options.

The EU have recently supported a ‘sharing economy’ reuters.com/article/us-eu-se … SKCN0YO12I

What’s more, only last March South Dublin County council said that whether a residential property was occupied on a rental basis or by the owner was not a matter for it. “Essentially the use is for residential purposes and only if, for example, residential use is changed to commercial use, as in a shop or other commercial activity, is planning permission required.” Dublin City Council said there was nothing under the Planning Act that precluded the use of a residence for short-term purposes. irishtimes.com/news/social-a … -1.2584950

Personally, I think that as long as landlords are compliant, paying their taxes and ensuring they abide by guidelines set out by short let forums, like Airbnb, they should be allowed to do as they wish with their property.


#2

:smiley:


#3

Right??? :laughing:


#4

They’re brining their culture with them. Some of them refuse to drink before 12.


#5

I’ve lived beside two apartments used for short lets (though not AirBNB in one case; some sort of contract with a nearby hotel), in two primarily residential buildings. I think requiring planning makes perfect sense; their customers tend to behave pretty badly. Not all of their customers, of course, but enough. If someone wanted to use the apartment or house next door to you for any other trade which produced a lot of noise and strangers wandering about, they’d need planning; not sure what’s meant to be so special about short lets.

Re the tourism point, last time I checked, hotels, b&bs and youth hostels exist (as do dedicated self-catering apartment buildings), and I’m pretty sure I remember seeing tourists on the streets of Dublin before Airbnb was a thing.

Realistically, though, even if a requirement for planning doesn’t come in, apartment building head leases will likely start specifically banning this practice, so it’ll decline over time.


#6

Temple bar was not intended to be turned into the City’s open air vomitorium. Many people actually bought into the push for residential revitalisation by living there in what was a semi derelict section of the city, destined to become a bus depot hub for CIE. Somewhere along the way the money came in and began to change the residential bias of the development vision with a highly virulent boom to whip it up into a freenzy. I’m relatively old enough to have seen the before and after of Temple Bar. There is much I miss that was social and local, vibrant and but brash.


#7

I agree, hotels that specifically buy or lease apartments for short lets are less likely to ‘vet’ their guests but I know that when, I for instance travel, which I do a lot of through work and for pleasure, the vetting process is substantial. Basically, it was very hard for me to obtain an apartment rental without ‘verification’ - which ultimately meant I had to provide my passport, credit card details and often my previous reviews by former hosts before I could secure a rental. In the early days, this meant that I needed to book through a friend and then add my contact to her booking, so as to get a positive review. I do not think that most guests of short lets pose a threat or hinderance to local residence. Of course, there are exceptions - as there is with everything.

I think legislation is important but i do not agree with blanket rules that penalise every law abiding/ local resident-respectful landlords.

With regard to tourism, of course Ireland has had it in buckets for years but only recently have we experienced such large numbers frequenting our cities, most of whom do not wish to stay 40 minutes bus/ taxi ride from the city centre of Dublin/ Cork etc, particularly if they are on a 3 day ‘city’ visit. Times are a changing. People expect much more now. I recently stayed in Soho New York, 3 of us spent a total of €800 on a one bed apt for 3 nights. We’d pay double that staying in a hotel nearby (i checked). We spent plenty of $$$s in the city, adding to the local economy. If we had to pay hotel prices, I’m not sure we would have been so keen to go so soon.

Change is hard but I really appreciate the EU initiative - the sharing economy. We cannot be an exclusive economy if we are to survive. We need to be able to welcome the masses and provide hospitality accordingly and at different price levels.

I personally think that legislation needs to tackle sub letting - this is one of AirBnBs biggest issues, I think and this is different to an owner letting their apartment, on a short/ long term let. Subletting poses minimum risk to the sub-letter. I also think that anyone letting their apartment has a big responsibility to their neighbours. Be casual with who you let to, suffer the consequences. Strike 3 and you’re out!


#8

Which consequences, though? In general, in this country, there seem to be minimal consequences for landlords whose tenants cause problems. And this is only compounded in the short letting scenario, where serious vetting is impractical (reviews on a website aren’t really worth much, and I hear that Airbnb suffers from the EBay Problem, where tenants and landlords tend to leave each other good reviews regardless of the facts, out of fear of a negative reprisal review) and where there are no real consequences to the visitor if they misbehave.


#9

I do airbnb on one property in-between corporate lets.
Too much work for little additional money.

The vetting process enables you to weed out hens & stags.
So far, all my ‘guests’ have been very good.

I signed a corporate let for the next 2 months and was extremely relived at doing so.
It’s not all its cracked up to be.


#10

German court upholds Berlin ban on Airbnb.

m.rte.ie/news/2016/0608/794041-b … te-rental/


#11

Surely, it’s a matter of time before the Irish government follow through with something similar to Berlin. I don’t know if our economy is large enough to test out the new models without recourse - e.g. performance of Uber in Ireland.

From a council perspective, you can see why AirBnb is a hindrance as well. Imagine the effect dividing up a large city centre hotel that pays rates and putting them inside residential properties across the capital. Development plans are also hampered by the use of properties for short-term letting - could an apartment block that is 100% AirBnb be considered residential?

I live near plenty of AirBnb properties and they employ companies to clean up after. I have never seen the AirBnb residents meet their host at the property and often catch them looking confused at the front door locking mechanism. My presumption is that it’s landlords offering very short term lets rather than a boutique host making a few euro on the side.


#12

There is definitely a mixture. I know people who will Airbnb their own place the odd weekend to make some cash, or Airbnb one room while one of them is away. And I doubt anyone has a big issue with that. It’s quite different from a professional full time Airbnb landlord.


#13

Another lost opportunity that has greatly diminished the city, made millionaires out of bad publicians and that we seem to accept.

(“vomitorium” :smiley: )


#14

That’s it.
If I ever own a bar in TB, I’m going to call it ‘The Vomitorium’, thereby instantly giving it a classic Roman air.


#15

Seen lots of this around the city centre. It’s just like a hotel service with linen trollies and towels moving from building to building. These are definitely properties that would have been rented out to long-term tenants a few years ago so that’s capacity that has been taken out of the rental market. Surely not on to have units not being used for their planned residential purposes during a ‘housing crisis’.


#16

It’s become a very strange circular problem. The lack of housing has forced the authorities to accommodate people in tourist premises which has soaked up excess supply in that sector thus driving up prices. (With modern rates management tools and an almost 100% internet based reservation system the art of squeezing the absolute maximum price from guests has become scarily efficient.)

With the price of traditional accommodation options so high tourists are turning to airbnb, driving up prices in that sector and thus making it more attractive for residential property owners to effectively convert their assets into a different, higher yielding class. But bizarrely, the very act of adding to the stock of airbnb properties does not decrease their prices as one might expect with any other good - by decreasing the availability of residential property and (maybe not directly, but certainly at the end of chains) driving people into emergency accommodation, they are removing hotel rooms from the market and increasing demand and rates for airbnb.
A new era of “perverse supply” brought to you by the sharing economy and incompetent government.


#17

irishtimes.com/news/crime-an … -1.2714145

Assume this is the apartment in question:
oldpresbytery.com/index.html

This is common in other countries. Management companies often make it very clear that no short term letting will be allowed in buildings for a number of obvious reasons. Think it’s a good idea in principle to stop it, I think I would probably vote a ban in for any of the buildings I’m involved with, but it should be set in stone and people should know when buying apartments in certain developments whether it is allowed or not.


#18

Very difficult to uphold from a constitutional perspective I imagine. Just depends on whether the owner gets support to take it all the way.


#19

Why? It’s effectively a commercial operation. If it were a hairdressers they’d need planning permission.

The owners are all equal shareholders owning the common areas which form a part of their home. They have a right to enjoy their common area without drunk randomers disturbing their peace and quiet.


#20

Planning and Development Act is very clear on what constitutes ‘development’ and there is a pile of case law regarding similar matters. Air BnB lettings are an intensification of an existing use and require planning permission. it’s a slam dunk. SC ruled on a house built without PP a few years back that as a family home it was invioble (sp?) but the ‘common good’ argument would trump constitutional property rights in this case…