And now a word on behalf of our new overlords

Goodbye Irish Sovereignty: EU Commissioner Olli Rehn Issues His First Directive As Overlord Of The Emerald Isle -> … rlord-emer

I really don’t have any anger towards the IMF/ECB/EU or any of the others involved in the bailout. I find the people who do baffling.

In my opinion…
Ultimately, the situation we are feeling now, this is Irish sovereignty in action. A non-exhaustive selection (familiar to all):

  • We got into the housing bubble all on our own, and we could easily have gotten out of it on our own too. The first Bacon report, from 1998 came out only about the time we fixed our currency into the euro framework anyway, so if euro membership was the problem leading to house price inflation we could have got out/delayed then. But it wasn’t and we didn’t.
  • We kept inflating the bubble for a good ten years on our own
  • Pesky foreigners told us the bubble was a bubble, but we kept to our own course
  • We ran up ongoing expenditure based on bubble income
  • We elected 3 governments of the same ilk to keep on with these policies
  • When it all started to go awry, the sovereign state ran things in its own way, guaranteeing banks with abandon, surprising the neighbours
  • We chose to proceed with a glacial pace of reform: of expenditure, of governance, of personnel
  • We pushed those policies until we got to a point where we can no longer fund ourselves

Now, we as a sovereign people (whatever that sort of polemic really means) are negotiating pretty awful conditions from the only people who’ll still deal with us, and making plans for the minimum adjustments that will placate them, while running up further debt burdens for our and the nation’s future.

It’s pretty horrible, but it’s just an example of how to exercise sovereignty.

Here’s what I think it’s like. It’s like being an adult and becoming a heroin addict. That’s a horrible path, but it could be an adult decision. Then you go looking for help when you’re about to drop dead. Again, that could be an adult decision. But it becomes less adult and more childish if you then start resenting the outsiders who will only give you crappy methadone instead of the real stuff, and who force you to turn up at certain times so they can check you’re not taking other street drugs and that your health is OK. This carries on to saying “they only give that help because they don’t want to look like junkies like me on the street out of our heads, it’s not because they really care about me”.

Ireland is like that. We’re debt junkies, being offered some sort of help that might or might not work. It doesn’t matter whether the people offering it like us or not, and ultimately it’s for us to decide whether it’s a good idea to take the help or not (factoring in all relevant effects, political and economic). If it does or doesn’t work, the final responsibility for where we end up is our own, and that’s sovereignty. The people who have to answer for this are Irish citizens (one way or another, individually or in collective).

Apologies for rambling post, I’ve not been BD ing, honest :smiley:

+1. I posted along the same lines a few days ago…

quote: I don’t get all these people saying how “the IMF destroyed this country or that country”. Were these countries not already destroyed, and this was the reason the IMF were asked for a loan - the last port of call when everyone else has laughed in their face? It is invariably the politicians and ‘insider’ business interests who have run up catastrophic debts and ruined productive capacities and squandered the wealth and spirit of nations. But then the IMF come in and they get all the blame? … It’s not the IMF - it’s our politicians and gombeen “men of affairs”. Let no one forget it.

Anyway, the source of the OP is from a dodge website.

I saw an interview with the IMF guy, he seemed alright to be honest. I think they just want the country to fix itself up. I dont think we can on our own because of our crappy politicians and its only temporary anyway. Sovereignty doesnt feed your kids, it feeds the nation’s collective ego.

@roc, I missed your post. Glad to know I’m not entirely off the rails.

@bilbot79, your comment made me think a bit (I don’t disagree with you, just it re-framed some terms for me).

I think that what the media and some other commentators refer to as “sovereignty” is actually pride. It’s the image is of sovereigns as monarchs: of wealth, and grandeur; and there’s a scarcity of all of that these days (apart maybe from would-be-kings). Pride definitely doesn’t feed the kids. Sovereignty (as you point out) doesn’t feed them either, but it does mean that we take responsibility for whether the kids get fed or not. Handled well, it means stepping up to the mark and doing what needs to be done, even if it is unpalatable or humiliating, and even if we’re not sure what the right thing to do is. It can be handled badly too, as we’ve seen.

(I’m not saying that I think the bailout is the right course, that’s a whole other can of worms)

No michaelc

We did not get into this on our own.

The elected political class as well as their banking co conspirators set up a system, beginning around 1997 that has led us into this.
Various quangos and vested interests have suported the mission thus far and have continued to drive the weapons of mass destruction of the Irish State.
There are bad people responsible for this. Greedy, irresponsible people.

I don’t accept the blame for any of this. Not at all. I haven’t benefited and all that I see is a nation paralyzed by media that refused to assign blame where blame clearly lies.

Furthermore, just look at root causes.

  1. Massive easing of credit availability.
  2. Continued further easing of credit availability (post 911 etc and post dot com burst)
  3. who was responsible for this - governments/politicians/central bankers/corporate bankers. These were the main players at the top of the pile.
  4. Bubble bursts
  5. Lehmans
  6. Introduce banking guarantee - why? to protect the banks, the bondholders (i.e. more banks and banking financial vested interests), to protect the politicians, to protect the friends of the politicians all heavily invested in this bubble mania. They got their own sticky fingers stuck in their own honey pot!
  7. Doubts about banking guarantee. Create NAMA - Why? To the benefit of again all of the above and more of their buddies including their old developer friends and auctioneers and estate agents
  8. Doubts about the real costs of debt? Austerity - Does any of this affect the above? NO. NO WAY HOSEH. Instead bankers get increases in pay, even down to junior grades, big spending by NAMA, big spending by politicians and their buddies in the quangos
  9. Big doubts about the debt? Can’t pay perhaps? Bring in the IMF.
    And who are the IMF?

They are more FUCKING BANKERS, invited in by their political friends to maintain the banking system at all costs.

At this stage we need to remove money from governmnet control. Introduce peoples money. Governments essentially corrupt.

It’s all a super mind game that when you see what they’ve been doing. Divide and Conquer everywhere but only put the people into confusion.

People loose. Bankers win.

I really wonder if there is any other way in this nation other than violent action to bring about the necessary change? Is there?

I do know however that many people cannot even pay their own debts - since the government pays them for them. I fear these stupid useless non contributors. I work for them but they work against me.

Damn this nation.

Damn the Bankers. Damn the IMF. Down with it all.

If this is the kind of clear thinking BD ing produces, keep it up :mrgreen:

And thank you BoyRacer, it is nice to have some thought/reaction provoking articles.

lets get this clear, the imf are here because we socialized the bank losses. If not for that we could have cut our deficit and took a lot of pain notw, while keeping the pension fund and our state assets. It is arguable that we were pressured into doing it for political reasons, as well as getting the cheap credit for political reasons. The euro will be finished soon (already is ecoomic tems) because it was dreamt into existence for again political reasons. And I dont agree with the heroin analogy, if anything its the opposite, we are still being fed the drugs which we should have weaned ourselves off of, not only that we are being pressured into it. Taking it one step further, maybe the advocates of the IMF entry are the ones who want to stay on the heroin. The end result will be the same: default, except now without a pension fund, state assets like ESB and bord gais and of course soverignty.
REminds me of the opium wars: the british invaded parts of china when the cineese mandarins tried to put a stop to the opium that was being pushed on the country. They got invaded, the ports seized (hong kong among others) and the chineese peasant kept up his drug addiction.

without the IMF there would be a lot more pain now, but we have a great opportunity to kick start the revolution! Bring down the financial cancer now so we get a head start on the future of life without oil, its the only way we get a head start on the transition. Its coming like it or not

Don’t agree. Think we cannot afford either the deficit or the bailout.

The less the state owns the better. The state is incapable of delivering value.

As regards the civil servants pension fund, not really my problem. Another opportunity to default on obligations that really aren’t earned or due.

Edit: and what is the whole sovereignty anyway? Could we (as a nation of voters of course) have managed to fuck things up any further?

no, there would have been a game changing revolution precipitated. The organs of the state would have been decapitated in short order just like in Iceland. they were not subject to same external pressures we were so they defaulted and devalued their currency both of which we could have done in a few simple steps (the intermediate one being reintroducting the punt)
so lets ook at where they are now:

Two years on, Iceland is rebounding: exports and manufacturing are growing by 20%, tourism is back near all-time highs, real wages are rising, unemployment is declining sharply, interest rates fell from 18% to 5.5% and the stock market rebounded 50% from its low … ilout-plan

If we had done that we’d be out. The gombeenarchy would be gone and we would have achieved something which will be necessary for the future: self sufficiency. Instead we are now drowning in debt. The debt monkeys have dragged us down, and well all drown together. So I’m not blaming the imf, I blame the debt monkeys (germany etc); its like a drowning person who you are trying to help, but they try to pull you down to save themselves. The imf are on their side.

What is this soverignty thing? Its about making these hard decisions for ourselves and having a better future in the long term instead of shunning pain.

I think its very short sighted to welcome another malign cabal just so we can get rid of our own. We are well capable of doing this ourselves in the right situation. and that situation is now. Do you honestly think the gombeenarchy would be there for more than a week after default? And we could still raid the pension fund ourselves and put it to good use. Instead we’ve lost about the only remaining assets and have wakened our position for the coming default anyway

Not only that, we could bring down the whole charade and bring about the type of chaos that is required for a true revolution in thinking throughout europe and the rest of the world for that matter

My context on all this is as follows: The US left the gold standard in the 70’s and in doing so 50 coutries simultaneously went onto fiat money. The logic was that they had reached a peak in energy prodiction so in the absense of abuntant wealth creation (all wealth creation comes from the primary economy: natural resources) they enabled the borrowing of wealth from the future through creation of debt, which in turn was enabled by fiat money. As things wore on, this strategy got out of hand, which resulted in the bubble era, started in the tech bubble. Now we have Global peak oil, which means global peak primary economy, hence peak wealth creation. Now we have a new situation where the primary economy cannot feed the debt and we have debt destruction. In short we are on a theradmill to hell, and those to get off first will be the best positioned in the long term
Blue pill anyone?

So are all bankers irredeemably malign now? (they may well be, I’m just asking the question).

Let’s look at what the function of banking really is. I think this function was best put by Ricardo, who said,
“No wealth can be created by banking operations. Rather, they are an important device to bring about a better arrangement of productive forces”*

Now, obviously, looking at our own bankers, they absolutely fucking decimated our productive forces during the boom by ensuring that more and more money was shovelled towards activities like land speculation, crony business dealings, purchase of luxury and trophy goods, and many other areas that paid off in kind to the benefit of the political class (or should we say dynasty rather than class in Ireland’s case) and to the benefit of the party loyal gombeen business men.

But look at the steps the IMF have taken with us to try to ensure that the money they are offering doesn’t get immediately shovelled into first time mortgages, and other gombeen and politically motivated business activities like set out in the para above?

What they’ve done is not perfect by any means, but in terms of bringing about “a better arrangement of our productive forces”, imo they have taken far superior measures than the delinquent banker class we have become used to in this country would have taken.

Obviously not just any drinker.
Obviously a SENSIBLE drinker.

(This message is brought to you by a leading pusher of alcohol. Please always drink sensibly to help us maximise our profits.*)

  • For today’s definition of how much booze is sensible to drink, please consult your local barman as soon as possible :open_mouth:

Hang on a second. The Troika are now effectively extending the guarantee to previously unguaranteed debt. “Surprising the neighbours”, my hole.
*“Mr Rehn denied there was any difference of opinion between the ECB, the European Commission and the IMF on whether or not senior bondholders should be ‘burned’ in the Irish banking sector.

He said senior debt would not be jeopardised, otherwise there could be the risk of further contagion in the system.

‘The EU-IMF-ECB troika worked in excellent co-operation and there was no significant deviation of positions on these issues. Our position is very clear. The senior debt, not to speak of sovereign debt, should not be and will not be restructured. It is another thing as regards subordinated bondholders,’ he said.”*


The state has in the past provided and built up significant value in many countries and not least in Ireland.
which is why capitalists are so keen on privatisation of the juicy valuable state owned assets so they can strip them.
Policing , education for example up until recently have been things the state does extremely well and have provided good value.
The department of revenue (which you could theoretically outsource) provide outstanding value in the last few years.
Very good service.
The E.S.B. were world leaders.

The pint is organisations are not good or bad by virtue of being state or privatised they are good or bad based on how well they are being run. If the state will be forced to take the risk of the failure of a private organisation and step into the breach then it should be nationalised. The reason banks, which have failed in every country on earth periodically over thousands of years is that private individuals (after all whose money the majority of this is) are petrified of Governments arbitrarily stealing their money through malice.

Each new wave of private banks convinces it’s customers that they learned the lessons of the previous failures…

Our overlords have let it slip again that they are the driving foce behind the effective expansion of the Guarantee. … 54031.html

This is in circumstances where the Govt has allowed the original Sept 2008 Guarantee to lapse and has only left the ELG cover in place. Anybody who could get out before the expiry of the blanket guarantee already got out, but the EU is making us cover the fckers who did not get out.

Jaysus run for cover and I thought it was FF’s brainchild… Oh lordy me, didn’t Senor Lenihan say he wouldn’t dare touchy touchy zee bondholders??? And what did Ms Merkel say remind me, himm Gott Himmel!!!

FF apologist much??? :angry: