Apple, Ireland, EU, Tax Avoidance, Margrethe Vestager, CCCTB


#21

Turkeys to vote for Christmas – Dail to be recalled to rubber-stamp appeal


#22

BTW where was the eu when nama was distorting the property market and bulldozers were knocking down houses that had never been put up for sale


#23

That’s not a distortion of the internal market.

We have to be allowed to screw up our own affairs to some extent. The EU can’t babysit us 24x7 sadly.


#24

Independence Alliance and Zappone are some shower.

To save you all googling, the collective nouns for a group of weasels include boogle, gang, pack and confusion


#25

I’m not surprised about anything that rag tag outfit could come out with…
Zappone…mileage claims and her recent vote against Wallace’s bill on Abortion
Ross…the ultimate populist and insider. Former stockbroker
McGrath…rights for smokers

On the Junior side…
Halligan…Per RTE website report on the Apple Cabinet decision “A decision on a possible upgrade of those services [cardiac services at Waterford Hospital] is expected in the coming days”
Boxer Moran…“Mr Moran hit out at the Opposition for suggesting there was “a crock of gold” which could be spent on health and education among other things. He said the longer-term objective of securing inward investment by multinationals creating jobs was far more important.
“Some of the opposition are stoking up false expectations. We may never see this so-called €13bn in Apple back-taxes, we don’t have it – we may never get it,” Mr Moran added.”

Pigs at the trough


#26

You know the way the PDs had backed FF and Bertie on so many things there was no way they’d collapse anything ?

This crisis has actually strengthened FG’s position because Zappone and IA didn’t show any principle here. They’re now ‘all in’. They just need to not mess with services in the constituencies


#27

IRISH INDEPENDENT: Cabinet agrees to appeal €13bn Apple ruling
independent.ie/irish-news/politics/cabinet-agrees-to-appeal-13bn-apple-ruling-35016254.html

It has a feel of the night of the bank guarantee with the Greens / FF deja vu again:

Greens keep FF in power to fully guarantee all Irish banking debts, in order to get a free bike scheme in Dublin City.

Similar double speak from the IAs as the Greens used “we want Apple to pay the fine, but we are going to appeal it.”

The list of “Tax Initiatives” are hilarious (we know that we live on Animal Tax-Haven Farm, you don’t have to humiliate us). We know that none of these “tax initiatives” are going to have any effect. We now know where the 26% GDP growth came from (thank you Margrethe) and that saving Apple, by taking its tax avoidance swindle into our GDP, will cost us another €7bn. We just hope that you at least clawed some of this €7bn back from Tim C®ook.
thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?p=889565#p889565

Time for us animals to get back to our work and let the cabinet celebrate their close call with confronting their electorate again.

However, comedy comparisons aside, I do believe the smart play is to support Apple (but with a small “s”). Apple are going to drop this appeal in the next year or so, and we will look better to the other MNCs standing beside them. We just have to make sure that we don’t do it so forcefully (or “emotively”) that the EU get p***ed with us, as this would have much more serious consequences.


#28

Apparently Tim Cook range Enda Kenny and had a “private” call with him on Sunday, so before the ruling. I expect Enda was reminded that just as Apple could inflate Ireland’s GDP by 25% in one quarter, so too can they gradually deflate it over a couple of years leaving us in a long recession.


#29

There is a rumor that Apple’s Dublin tax advisors got written assurances from the State over the years (FF and FG), that it was happy with Apple’s Irish resident / non Irish resident tax scam. Buried in the small print of these written assurances (again from Apple’s Dublin tax advisor), were additional safeguards that make it legally impossible for the State to do anything other than support Apple’s EU appeal (otherwise, Apple would have a case to sue Ireland for their EU fine). In addition, all these agreements between Apple and the State are confidential, and nobody can say they saw them. That was why the AG had to spend so long with the IAs. And why the IAs have to support Apple (but can’t say why they are bound to support Apple).

Another victory for our Section 110 Vulture Fund tax avoidance schemes “organ grinders”:
Seperating out the “Organ Grinders” from the “Monkey”: thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?p=889219#p889219


#30

So the Irish State, on behalf of the taxpayers of the country, may pay the fine on Apples behalf …bailing out Apple so to speak as we did with the Banks :angry:


#31

Not that bad (I think).

My understanding is that the State has to support Apple (or these written agreements can interprit anything other then full State support, as being the State undermining Apple).

These agreements were to protect Apple against a SF scenario, where a new Government goes ‘hostile’ on Apple and, by direct or indirect means, undermines Apple’s EU tax avoidance scam.

As I understand it, the State did not underwrite or guarantee the performance of Apple’s EU tax avoidance scheme. If (when) the politically-driven ECJ overturn Apple’s appeal, the Irish State should not liable for any of Apple’s €19bn total EU fine.

Of course, when Apple is begging the Irish State to accept the €19bn fine, to avoid the even greater €60bn fine that our EU partners are going to go for (now that they have been shown that Apple’s IP was potentially not resident in an EU country, or any country, and discussed earlier on this thread), Apple’s Dublin tax advisors may be facing a massive suit for what will be shown to be really bad tax advice (as shown by Margrethe Vestager’s report).

Why Apple’s EU total fines could ultimately top €60bn
thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?p=889587#p889587


#32

Don’t follow, the absence of a tax treaty would render the invoices from the stateless entity not tax deductible in the various EU states - is that what you mean? :confused:


#33

Yes - and particularly so in the case of re-charging inter-group intangible items like IP.

i.e.

If you are a German company, and in your tax return, you have a large intangible inter-group cost item with an Isle of Man entity, that is not to work unless the German Revenue grant you a particular exemption (which can happen). That is the big flaw of Apple’s Irish structure. Apple have been “implying” to the German Revenue that Apple Ireland was Irish resident (there are standard EU agreements that cover IP royalty charges within the EU). In reality, while Apple Ireland was located in Ireland (in the offices of Matheson) is was not Irish resident (according to Irish Revenue). It was not resident anywhere. That is a big (big) no no with the German Revenue (and all other EU Revenues), and there could be even greater financial consequences for Apple than the €19bn fine.


This is the reason why all the US MNCs need to be “resident” in Ireland.
This is material mistake that Apple made, but it was too greedy (or its tax advisors too stupid).
Apple wanted the EU TP system (to avoid EU taxes), but also wanted to avoid all Irish taxes.
That is what Margrethe Vestager shows (and why Apple are paranoid on report confidentiality).
When this gets digested, Apple are going to have a change of heart over the €19bn fine.


#34

That’s an intriguing theory. But it could well be someone running interference.
In which jurisdiction would Apple sue ? How could they enforce ?

There’s a big difference between a lawyer (such as our lightweight AG) saying ‘there’s a risk we’ll be sued’ and ‘we will definitely lose when we are definitely sued’


#35

Where is the EU when a certain German carmaker was gaining an unfair competitive advantage by being allowed to ignore emission laws.

While Apple are no saints, the 13 billion euro fine is awfully similar in amount at todays exchange rate that the above carmaker has to pay in US ($15 billion dollars)


#36

Connected Fianna Fail-ers who are on a first name basis with the experienced lads in the Dáil… how do you feel about the Dáil being recalled so everyone can bite down on this collective sh1t sandwich together?

Mmmm… tastes like sadness.

This is a challenge for FF surely?


#37

:smiley:


#38

Why I am 90% sure that Apple will drop their appeal and we will get the €19bn

Unlike the Section 110 Vulture Fund scandal, we have no Margrethe Vestager to reveal what happens when you put ex. Irish school teachers in charge of multi-billion balance sheets (answer. Irish wealth destruction on an epic scale).

We will have to suck it when our “Revenue investigation” into Vulture Funds (who Revenue have been helping) find nothing inappropriate. €20bn of Irish Irish domestic taxes will just sail off to Cayman / Luxembourg. We will just have to get over it.

However, Margrethe Vestager’s report on Apple in Ireland is a different story. It is going to be a masterclass of analysis (if her press releases and presentations are anything to go by), and in spite of the best efforts of our ex. school teachers to avoid getting and Irish taxes again, Margrethe is going to get us our €19bn (and much more tax into the future).

Margrethe has thrown two grenades into Apple’s dodgy scheme which will kill it:

  1. Her report contains evidence that Apple was violating US tax codes by illegally lending its offshore cash hoard (from its EU tax avoidance schemes) back to the US, thus avoiding formally remitting the cash to the US, and incurring 35% + c. 5% in US taxes). So bad is this violation, that Apple was forced to immediately announce that it would be paying “billions of US taxes” soon. Apple has blinked. By doing this, Apple is going to incur 35% + c 5% US tax on a portion of its “offshore” (or “stateless”) cash hoard. To the extent is pays the Irish €13bn fine, it will get a tax credit for this payment, against these US taxes. As the €13bn fine is calculated on a 12.5% tax rate, it will be materially lower then the taxes if everything is sent home (over +3x €13bn = c €40bn)

IRISH TIMES: Apple to pay “billions in US” taxes, Tim Cook
irishtimes.com/business/economy/apple-to-pay-further-billions-of-tax-on-2014-european-profits-next-year-1.2775496

RICHARD MURPHY: Tim Cook isn’t playing his cards very well
taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/09/02/tim-cook-really-isnt-playing-his-cards-very-well/

  1. However, while Margrethe’s first grenade was a “small stick”, to soften Apple’s defense against the €19bn Irish fine, her second grenade is a “big stick” that will have Apple running to beg Ireland to accept the €19bn fine (and lock-down that Apple Ireland was always fully Irish resident). As Margrethe points out, if Apple Ireland was “stateless” (as Irish Revenue claim), then Apple Ireland could not have used EU TP rules to recharge its IP out (the EU does not have a tax treaty with a “stateless” country) to Germany, France, Italy etc. Given our EU partners have tax rates 2-3x our own, they would be sueing Apple for 2-3x the €19bn.

Why Apple’s EU fine could top €60bn
thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?p=889587#p889587


Apple has been caught doing crooked things avoiding all EU taxes (and US taxes).

This is a retail “branded” goods company with one of the highest margins we have seen in IT hardware history (a fear of markets, and why Apple’s p/e multiple is 10x vs. say Google at 30x).

Given this, Apple has to put up a “cosmetic” fight against the EU ruling for a year or so (until this “political crap”, as Tim C®ook puts it, dies down) and they can claim a confidential EU “settlement” (which will be €19bn).

However, once other EU Revenues gets Margrethe’s report, and Irish Revenue’s statement Apple Ireland was “stateless”, their law suits will make the €19bn Irish fine seem like value for money.

Apple moved their IP into Ireland recently (to get into the 2015 final figs), boosting Irish GDP by 26% (we incur €380m in extra annual EU levies for that), so they have given up on 0% Irish tax going forward (which implies they will be paying some Irish taxes). In a way, Apple have blinked, and with the choice of:

(a) move all back to US (€40bn tax @ 35% + 5% rate).
(b) keep in Ireland and reinvest (€13bn + €6bn fine) (note, if you still have to go (a) route later, US IRS gives a credit).
© don’t do (a) or (b) and leave yourself exposed to EU Revenues suing for illegal transgers (c €60bn).

Apple have already chosen (b) as their core (moved all IP onshore in Ireland), and will still have to do some of (a) as they can’t justify that they will re-invest all the money in Ireland (hence Tim’s announcement of paying US taxes).

Why Margrethe Vestager accidentally uncovered another c €7bn in Apple costs to Ireland.
thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?p=889565#p889565


This is why the Government debate about whether to support Apple’s appeal is irrelevant. Apple is not going to carry on with the EU appeal. Apple is going to pay the €19bn fine to Ireland. Only question is whether Noonan will fk it up (again) by giving Apple a Section 110 type Vulture Fund structure, to find a new way to avoid all Irish taxes going forward.**


#39

Its all against eu rules, happening in Ireland… Ireland is in the eu.

The eu don’t care they only care about getting multinationals out of Ireland


#40

FG leadership have now decided on the most useful narrative for the sheeple - the 12.5% tax rate

irishtimes.com/business/econ … -1.2777769

Jealousy and envy