Bitcoin


#1835

Bitcoin is the greatest scam in history
recode.net/2018/4/24/172752 … -ico-value


#1836

According to whom? I’m not clicking on that.


#1837

I imagine that the set of links that user @el diablo is not clicking would be quite large. :slight_smile:

Article was written by Bill Harris…Founding CEO, PayPal and Personal Capital (Facts don’t care who you are…)

Counter argument from forbes
webcache.googleusercontent.com/ … hes-wrong/


#1838

Of course Paypal are concerned. Their whole business model is threatened by crypto and blockchain technology. :slight_smile:


#1839

Some serious confirmation bias going on there. Bill Harris stopped being CEO of PayPal 18 years ago this month. But he’s been doing payments and financial innovation for 25 years. I doubt he would be dissing crypto if he thought it was the Next Big Thing. It’s totally obvious crypto is a scam. Many people have a few acquaintances who have drunk the Crypto Kool-Aid. Ask yourself – is it because they think it will revolutionise the world of payments for the better? … or do they keep banging on about how if only they had bought in low they’d be a crypto gazillionaire by now? It’s not just a scam, it’s the oldest scam in the book, feeding on people’s twin foibles of greed and gullibility. We don’t need Bill Harris to tell us that.


#1840

+1 to most of that, but I’d argue that we do need Bill Harris to say it - a genuine disrupter, who really changed things. I remember the difference in price in Quicken/Quickbooks compared to standard accounting software when I was starting out. It was simple, easy to use, reliable and cheap. Unfortunately, he left to go to Paypal!


#1841

Do you not believe that any cryptos will ever have any real world use or value? What about XRP & Stellar who are actually working with financial institutions to find ways to improve payments and international transfers?

I agree that Bitcoin is a massive bubble and is turning into a Pyramid scheme being controlled by some big players out there. The sooner this pyramid comes crashing down the better, hopefully we can then look forward to some serious regulation being brought into the industry (which will only really happen after it collapses and everyone who has invested in it starts screaming it should have been regulated and they should have been protected). Only then can the technology have a fresh start without people just investing due to speculation and FOMO.
So I think in the future Bitcoin will be remembered as the 21st century Tulip, but as for cryptos in general the genie is out of the bottle and can’t ever be put back in again.


#1842

Nope.

I’ve yet to see a use case articulated for which cryptos can actually be used for that can not be done better with existing technology. Actually, I’ve yet to see a use case described that Bitcoin can actually be used for at all without enormous difficulty.

  • Instant payments: Bitcoin is not applicable here. Bitcoin has an inbuilt minimum transaction time of about an hour; it is impossible with Bitcoin to do transactions faster than this. Frequently it is twelve to twenty four hours to process a transaction. To do instant payments one needs a separate technology built on top of Bitcoin, think Visa who maintain their own ledger of balances for users.

  • Security and secrecy: Cryptos are not applicable here. All cryptos are built on a public ledger. It is a straight forward process for law enforcement to identify who owns the wallets. KYC laws mean that anyone that has ever transferred cash into or out of a crypto wallet can be identified immediately. From these people it is a straight forward process to identify people with ‘secret’ wallets; it may take a little time but they can easily be identified.

  • International payments: The issue with international payments is not the underlying technology being used that makes them slow. The issue is cash flow for banks. A simple example is: AIB do not have enough cash to do all the payments to BOI that happen every day. This might not sound right, but it is true. Banks do not keep vast quantities of cash sitting around to do the necessary payments they have to make every day. BOI though, also do not have enough cash to do all the payments to AIB that happen every day. What they do at the end of the day is compare ledgers and find out that the net flow of cash BOI <=> AIB is actually quite small in one direction or the other. This smaller volume of cash they do have and they pay this the next day. This is why inter bank payments are slow. On an international scale it is more complex, but the principle is the same. Doing international payments with Bitcoin would involve, Cash -> Bitcoin wallet -> Bitcoin Wallet -> Cash. Each of these are slow and involve fees.


#1843

One use case that I heard recently and which I thought was very interesting was the government using a FIAT backed version of the “Punt” to make all government payments e.g. social welfare, child benefit etc. This could create huge savings for them as they would not have to pay the banks for processing the payments while mandating them to accept the crypto tokens and exchange them for Euros for the public. :smiling_imp:


#1844

Bitcoin can be used to move large amounts of money around very quickly with minimum hassle, no international limitations on transfer and payment. I could send a billion USD worth of bitcoin to you in 10 mins (on a good day :slight_smile:).

Its total amount is known and fixed forever.

It has existed for 8 years already , has never been hacked and proven itself in the real world.

It has incredible global brand recognition.

There are no taxes or charges on holdings of bitcoin.

It has first mover advantage in a globalized digital world.

It is very widely distributed and has a highly liquid market.

There are a lot of very good reasons why bitcoin has value.


#1845

@taipeir
What would happen the Bitcoins if the holder dies suddenly?

They’re lost right?
Repeat over generations, and this inherent flaw becomes even more clear.
If someone has tangible assets something remains in that circumstance.

There’s so much irrational exuberance in the Bitcoin world. I recommend watching the documentary startup.com (2001) to gain some perspective. Older people will have seen this before.

(Although you will probably think…pfff, whatever :unamused: …and won’t watch it…you can’t say you weren’t given fair warning as to the potential risks.)


#1847

I’m not sure if you grasped what I was saying in my post (or maybe I wasn’t making myself clear).
You state that you don’t see any value or purpose in any crypto in the future but then all of your points revert back to Bitcoin. I have stated that I do not believe Bitcoin has a future, but there are newer and more advanced coins being developed that can overcome these issues.
You state that banks do not hold the funds to pay transfers but that is not quite true with international transfers. They hold Billions in Nostro accounts in different currencies to meet these payments, coins out there such as xrp and stellar are designed to avoid this with instant transfer allowing financial institutions to release a huge amount of tied up capitol.
I agree with your points regarding Bitcoin but I don’t think this counts for all cryptos, I’m not saying any of the coins out there now will be the solution but I do believe that eventually there will be several cryptos that become mainstream.


#1848

Maybe I could have been clearer with the distinction between Bitcoin and generic Crypto coin, but it doesn’t change any of the details of what I was saying.

I’ve never seen a use case articulated that Bitcoin, or any other type of Crypto coin for that matter, actually solves that can not and has not already been solved by existing technologies.

Financial institutions have huge amounts of capitol tied up because they are legally obliged to do so. Nothing here is ever going to change. They have to have x% of they funds in liquid accounts or to have it parked in central banks. Whether it is a Cheque in the mail, or a some type of electronic transfer doesn’t change that.

What is Bitcoin, or any other Crypto coin, actually going to be used for, other than as a speculation vehicle ?


#1849

Censorship resistant payments.

A fork is not a hack. Hacking an exchange or someone’s wallet is not the same as finding a bug in the protocol.

Depending on the cryptocurrency and the techniques used, it can be very far from straightforward. Nothing guarantees anonymity, the steps you have to take depend on the resources of your opponent.

Perhaps a better way to state this: cryptocurrency has the potential to make taxation quite difficult.

Ultimately, if it can be regulated, it has failed.


#1850

Indeed, crypto is existing technologies. Public-private-key encryption and peer-to-peer networking have been around since the 1970s and the 1960s respectively. The technology already has revolutionised the world – the entirety of internet commerce depends on it. The only thing Bitcoin has added is the ability to waste vast amounts of electricity.


#1851

The use case for digital currencies, specifically crypto ones, seems to be that criminals can use them to move money without being tracked. It’s not compelling to me.


#1852

There’s 400 billion USD says you are wrong already.
XRP also blows your argument out of the water.

With rapid developments the crypto market will certainly be a multi trillion dollar market in the next few years.


#1853

So ignorant . It’s like saying the internet was invented with the first telephone.


#1854

Im not that young I experienced the dot com boom.

Bitcoin is just one of future millions of crypto currencies and platforms. That BTC gets lost is no problem whatsoever. We know the total amount of bitcoin that has ever existed will not change. Ever. There is great value generated from that certainty.

The crypto boom now is NOT irrational it is rational because it brings the power of decentralisation and distributed ledger and smart contracts to all industries , not least the biggest which is finance!
Banks will be fundamentally disrupted.

You are missing a huge opportunity to get in early on the next ‘amazons’ and ‘netflix’. I distributed my investment across many different protocols and use cases, I only need a couple of them to become dominant in future due to the network effect to have huge returns.

You are warning me? I’m warning you lol. These opportunities don’t come up very often.

cnbc.com/2017/11/28/if-you- … e-now.html

‘That’s perhaps why Warren Buffett, the chief executive officer of Berkshire Hathaway, chose not to invest in Amazon when he had the chance. At Berkshire Hathaway’s annual meeting in May, the self-made billionaire said he didn’t appreciate the value of tech stocks at first.’


#1855

Good. Only 3% of what was lost in the GFC. The world can absorb those sorts of losses. In ten years time it’ll seem like just a blip. Something will rise from the ashes too … it’s just unlikely to be anything you bet on.