Britain leaving the European Union.


#4066

It is to be sure EvilG - Yer marvellous!
Praise from Yogi?
Theres no higher accolade on The Pin y’know.
(Except getting banned. At least I’d imagine so. Its never happend to me. Obviously.)

Glad to see youve caught up with one of the real issues, Yogi.
Youre really coming along!

What’ll Europe do without the Brits listening systems, though?
Theres another clump for your pipe…

Gas crack the whole Brexit thing, isnt it?
Sure I was laughing me arse of this morning when the BBC led with Carneys “35% house price drop”.
Honest to God I was snotting into the auld Ready Brek!

Jaysus didnt the whole thing take off on the auld Social Media and by lunch time they’d figured that 75% of the country thought it was a good idea.
There were remainers, millenials, pensioners, transgenders, londoners… the whole shower was starting to ‘get it’.
Even Kamel Ahed (or whoever did the Carney interview and article) had to backtrack on Twitter.

I swear to God but the whole thing vanished from the BBC website soon after.

You’d swear the fuckwits at the BBC/BoE were so detatched from reality that they thought this was a bad thing.

And there - for those who doubt - is the vast, vast gap between the the governing and the goverened in England.

If I were in Ireland, and I were exposed to the UK economy (thats you everyone!), I’d be realising that a bad deal for the UK is going to make 2008 look like a picnic.

**Time to cut the bravado and start supporting the UK in return for a (term defined) UK subsidised UI.
**


#4067

edit: Pah


#4068

rte.ie/news/analysis-and-co … rg-summit/


#4069

Over on eureferendum.com

eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86994


#4070

Hmm, so what you’re all telling me is that my prediction that the UK would after Brexit be, “5% poorer and 10% happier” is going to be a bit wide of the mark ? :stuck_out_tongue:

Meanwhile Sweden (Yes Sweden !) is lurching to the right. And the EU fails to adequately address the wave of sub-Saharan Africans as it struggles to square it’s instinctive but toxic empathy with the reality that it has to look after its own citizens first. But migration is just a dripping tap - commentators here and elsewhere can happily label it as hysteria until the sink overflows. And admittedly Britain is the EU country that had widespread riots and looting in recent years.

What I’m saying is that middle England may just stick with their initial decision to unhook themselves from Crazy Merkel’s toxic empathy. If I was Theresa May I’d be doubling down on a push to the right on issues like migration.


#4071

Indeed, and by tieing themselves to unrestricted immigration from the Commonwealth. That’ll show johnny european foreigner he can’t mess with the plucky english!


#4072

I always see the Brexiteers referred to in this thread as ‘English’ but it’s easy to forget that the Welsh voted to leave as did large numbers of both Scotland and NI.
This seems to be very much a UK decision.


#4073

It’s also worth remembering that much of the “home” counties voted remain.
This is very much a vote based on the demographic make up of the population, those who benefited most from the “free market” voted remain, while those who were largely ignored by the elite and were losing out due to the “race to the bottom” voted leave.

If the referendum was about allowing immigration (both form EU & non EU), the results would have been similar, as in no to further immigration.


#4074

I think it would have a been wider No to immigration. They thought they were voting against Muslim immigration but they’re going to get more from the commonwealth. They’re only marginally reducing it by stopping Merkel’s whims.

And if Brexit goes wrong you have a good chance to see race riots / pogroms in North of England. England has a recent history of rioting and a long history of religious pogroms. There is effectively apartheid going on in places like Bradford. And the kind of people in the indigenous community who might do it would be delighted to get payback for the sexual abuse and grooming scandals. That won’t be forgotten quickly.


#4075

Yes Evil G’s post is a worthy attempt at fleshing out the mechanics of what may happen should cirxumstances play themselves out in a particular manner.

However, it is one which appears to afford a degree of reverence to the legal and administrative practices that underpin the functioning of the EU and the manner in which it may conduct a relationship with the U.K. Ie yes that scenario is a possibility (and kudos to him/her for sticking his/her neck out and stating exactly what they believe will happen), but it is one (IMO) that is predicated on the adoption/maintenance of a particular political stance on the part of those charged with responsibility for charting the course of the post Brexit UK and EU.

In other words, (IMO) a degree of pragmatism and goodwill on the part of those involved woukd be quite capable of overcoming any obstacles that are likely to be encountered. For example consider the manner in which a Framework Decision is adopted and applied to Irish law. Generally work practices change absolutely within Givernment Departments,sometimes within the courts maybe within the Gardai, to name a few. There is generaly a ‘window’ period during which uncertainty applies, ongoing legal advice is required and back and forth continues over a period between the contacts in the respective agencies and member states with a view to ironing out such difficulties. The processes themselves may be held up for a time but they don’t grind to a halt. New processes are established, new precedents are set and newer, broader knowledge is accumulated. Quite simply, people find solutions.

Obviously this is heightened and magnified in the case of Brexit but given the fact that people’s livelihoods rather than mere administrative or legal practices will be at stake I would be confident that timelines for solutions could be a lot shorter than those associated with the workload of the average civil servant.

However, this is obviously based on the existence of the political will to do so. And there obviously exists the likelihood that the EU side may understably not wish to find solutions that could potentially render Brexit somewhat more succesful than would otherwise be the case. Likewise, it may not actually be in the personal interest of the individuals charged with negotiating on behalf of the U.K. to see Brexit succeed…and that some ‘systemic collapse’ up north or wherever might be just the ticket in PR terms.

Nontheless, my position is that such an outcome would be as a result of a political failure on the part of the individuals in question rather than any real inability on the part of people to arrive at solutions (in the short term) that would allow them to get on with the day to day business of living and trading with each other.


#4076

No they didn’t. London voted to remain.

All of Essex, nearly all of Kent and about half of Sussex voted leave.

There is a ring of leave-voting districts that almost encircles London.

Look here.

People can understand why places on the east coast of England with low levels of education voted leave.

It is much harder to understand why Aylesbury - which is extremely prosperous and has done very well from low trade barriers and inward migration - voted to leave.


#4077

This is a perfect example why many people in the UK have lost faith in the elite and their leaders as they are being stigmatized as being “uneducated” because they voted the wrong way.

Many people have absolutely no idea what the “man in the street” is thinking and in many cases do not care, so just dismiss them as “uneducated”.


#4078

Educational attainment is highly correlated with voting to remain.

yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted/


#4079

Having moved to England just after the vote this is the thing that I most struggle with. The media here is just a partisan punch and judy show. In conversation the topic is barely mentoned by the average Brit and when it is broached I find their grasp on the EU is extremely limited, and don’t even get me started on their ignorance of their own country! And many of these are professionals I’m talking about, many of whom have worked abroad!

National media is a battlefield, whereas sometimes just listening to the local radio is where you’ll find out what the public are thinking. In a recent local radio vox pop both leave and remain voters up my way all expressed the desire to “just get on with it, stop mucking about.” I don’t believe there really is an appetite outside the remain bubbles for a “peoples vote”, if anything it’s probably rubbing people up the wrong way. Corbyn’s absolutely right to not push on this.

I reckon on the ground ending of Freedom of Movement is the great masses redline around which they’ll coalesce if pushed. Many conflated non-EU immigration with Freedom of Movement. Yeah, they haven’t fully understood it means the dream of retiring to the Playa da Blackpool becomes harder but then they mentally never viewed those stomping grounds as foreign anyway!

This is why I reckon we’re heading for a customs deal, and tough shít DUP, you’re getting an Irish sea border. If the DUP collapse the government they’ll get one with Corbyn anyway so that’s why I reckon the DUP will spin it as a compromise somehow. Call it damage limitation after bringing forward the prospect of a border poll by a few generations!


#4080

In a democracy, a poor(ly educated) man’s vote has the same weight as a rich (educated) man’s vote.
It’s very dangerous to dismiss the less educated people, the Brexit vote is a classic example.


#4081

The uneducated weren’t, and aren’t being, dismissed. They are being courted, and pandered to, by large swathes of “the elite”.

Most of the tabloid media, and 50% of so called “quality” sectors like the BBC, pander to the utter fantasy held by those who haven’t the faintest idea of what the EU is, or how it works, (the uneducated), that the EU is a significant factor in the problems which they perceive, and that leaving the EU will somehow make their lives in anyway better.

The problem is not that the uneducated are being dismissed. The problem is that they are being lied to.


#4082

They’re not being dismissed. They’re just being told that they won’t like the probable consequences of their poorly informed votes, while at the same time, action is being taken to try to limit those consequences.

In a democracy, people have the freedom to vote to go to hell in a handcart. That doesn’t mean they have the freedom to stop others saying “I told you so.”


#4083

There’s enough educated people in support of Brexit to make assertions about the inherent uneducatedness of taking a pro-Brexit position to be, well, dumb.

Given the number of Mickey Mouse degrees in surfing and media studies churned out since the 1990s, reliance on the notion that the average graduate now has more wisdom than the average graduate in 1975 is a bit shaky.

I wonder if you’d taken a poll in the year 2000 in Greece about the wisdom of joining the Euro ? I’d wager a higher proportion of Greek graduates than shepherds were in favour. Funnily enough despite their lack of educational attainment and knowledge of how the EU worked the shepherds were right.


#4084

It certainly looks like Brexit will be a cock-up founded on misleading assertions on what was achievable.

But how will a history student look back on the EU in 50 years time. It’s a top-down political project with sclerotic governance. Every crisis over the last 10 years follows the same pattern - Greece, Ukraine, Migration :

  • set piece crisis prime ministerial meetings with 90% pre-agreed outcomes
  • late night decisions which turn out to be muddled fudges
  • every minister rushes out to claim victory to his awaiting national broadcaster

Do you really think that’s sustainable for 20 more years ?


#4085

Exactly.

This approach of highlighting the number of supposedly educated people in favour or against something is becoming standard schtick at this stage. It’s a ploy that assumes that everyone not the same as ‘us’ aspires to be just like us.

It’s basically an attempt at psychological manipulation that assumes a desire on the part of most people to self identify as ‘progressive’ etc or more correctly not ‘non progressive’ or whatever noun fits that description (in Ireland it usually entails reference to De Valera or the 1950s etc). It’s a component of what Chomsky described as the manufacturing of consent. Clintons ’ deplorables’ comment fits into the same category and has less to do with a belief that those in possession of a university degree are more capable of interpreting the world than those without, and more to do with an assumption about the herd instinct of the majority. Indeed, as GB alludes to above, it’s becoming more and more likely that people who never attended third level education may in fact be a lot more capable of independent thought than those who did.

Basically the millennial version of Mrs Bucket/Bouqet…