Is Islam sticky across generations of immigrants? I only personally know one second generation immigrant whose father was a deeply religious Muslim and the third generation has a completely secular upbringing.
What do you think is an ok % to have as muslims in Ireland? Or do you believe there is no limit?
From your reply its sounds like in that case the 3rd generation integrated? Maybe the question should be what % first generation is ok at a single time? That way you can infer what the portion the second generation will be etc. The 3rd and other generations that we assume to be by then integrated could become whatever % of the population - I think most people wouldnt care once integrated. But its this thorny issue of what is ok right now that needs to be addressed.
Given that France for political reasons has refused to record religion of citizens for official purposes numbers have been difficult to get over the decades but the numbers talked about recently seemed to be pretty stable over the generations with muslim immigrants. There are now a large cohort of 3’rd and even 4’th generation magrebs by this stage. The secular / relegious spilt looks pretty stable over the generations so far. Two thirds secular / one third religious. It does not seem to abate with later generations. Or whether they were raised in a secular muslim family.
Of the religious muslims about 80% would be classified as orthodox/fundamentalist. As distinct from liberal/reformist. The split of opinion on the secular state, laicite, among the orthodox/fundamentalist muslims is about 2/3’rd negative. They have strong views that sharia should apply not only to them but to their “areas”. If you have ever been in a magreb ZUS “no go zone” you will know just how hostile these areas are to non mulsims.
The key number among the orthodox/fundamentalist muslims is that at least 40% have a positive/understanding view towards the salafis/jihaid and about 10% of them actively support / encourage that behavior. So every generation of muslims in France will produce at least 3%/5% new supporters of violent salafi/jihadi behavior against the rest of the population. So thats a pool of around 30k/50K salafis and their supporters. Which will increase 50% each generation due to historical fertility rates.
That is why all mosques and imams in France must now register with the French authorities. They are now being actively monitored and if either the imams or mosque come to the notice of the authorities there is a good chance they will be shutdown. But by this stage its very much a matter of too little too late as the muslim mosques in France have the same problem as the Mirpuri ones in the UK. Imported imams spending the last few decades teaching the fundamentalist muslim dogmas from the home country.
Do you have any published sources for these numbers?
I don’t believe that immigrants should be discriminated for or against on religious grounds.
As for how many immigrants is the right number, well…I don’t know. Ireland is changing. It’s difficult to tease out the good and bad elements of that. I work in Dublin, and it seems a much more interesting place in the last decade as the numbers of young foreigners have increased. Youth and variety gives a place vitality. So for now, I don’t see much bad.
Which part of Ireland do you live in that’s formed your apparently negative day to day experience of immigration?
I’ll have to think back to where I saw them. Mostly in the French media. And mostly after the Bataclan massacre. Chalie Hebdo started the discussion in the public media but it was Bataclan that really demolished all the taboos about talking about this stuff. Before Bataclan the SOS Racisme types would shout down everyone as “racist” for even daring to mention these subjects but they were shutup for almost two years after Bataclan. I have noticed in the last year or so they are getting more strident again in trying to control any public discussion of the subject.
It’s the 20% + number after 7/7 that sticks in my head
And also hostile to many of the muslims living there too
Ultimately this all goes back to the old question of whether the economy exists to serve society or the other way around.
The infinite growth model obviously assumes the latter as more and more people are generally required to provide the labour that fuels said infinite growth…although as someone else has pointed out, automation may have something to say about that into the future.
In a scenario where the economy would be structured as a means toward the provision of a decent life for the citizens of a country then inward migration may of course be restricted and tailored to the needs of the receiving society. There is however a current trend toward the erosion of natonal sovereignty generally which will obviously impact on nation states ability to control entry to their national territories should they decide it to be desirable to do so (as per the aspirational content of the UN migration pact signed in Marrakech earlier this week).
Personally I would view this difference in perspective, as applied to economics, as being one of the main differentiators between what have come to be known as the globalists and what may be labelled latter-day nationalists. This dichotomy is beginning to manifest itself somewhat in the form of the yellow vest protesters versus Monsieur Macron (broadly speaking) . It’s possible that this may even replace the old left v right divide as a newer, more relevant political fault line into the future.
In Ireland I don’t think we have any substantial political force on the side of ‘new nationalism’. To speak of limited migration in Dublin today is to shunned as Enoch Powell reincarnate. Maybe these voices will emerge in the May 2019 elections. Or maybe they’ve already given up on the political charade. New or otherwise.
Signed in Marrakesh:
Marrakesh, where the damn UN migration pact was signed
It is indeed horrendous, but it did happen in Morocco itself. I think the women were camping out at the side of a Mountain. Not to excuse this sickening barbarism, but I wouldn’t fancy camping out the side of a mountain there myself, and what tiny tiny percentage of Moroccan people would agree with the actions of these sickos. Like Tunisia and Egypt, it is a shame if Europeans should feel they can’t visit tourist spots in these places, due to the actions of a few complete physcopaths.
Saw this online:
“Western women will be glad to hear they won’t have to visit Morocco in the future because we’re inviting Morocco to us instead.”
What degree of responsibility lies with those who promote a culture in the west (with Scandinavia being to the forefront) that encourages cultural relativism and tells women in particular (but not exclusively) that the process of taking sensible precautions with regard to their own safety is a form of submission to patriarchal norms ? As well as also labelling those who might deign to offer a bit of advice (perhaps gained from Life experience) as mysoginists or perhaps even racists?
We appear to be living in times where the most basic survival instinct, that of a healthy (initial) suspicion of the unknown , a principle that has underpinned the evolutionary process itself, is being socially engineered out of people’s habit forming processes…cos racism, fascism or whatever ism your having yourself
Is that advice asked for? People generally don’t respond well to unsolicited instructions from strangers.
Instructions or warnings?
Depends what you’re up to.
Well it’s a moot point init, because your tyrannical patriarchal “Da” or patriarchally oppressed “Ma” won’t be able to warn you off any notion of backpacking to dangerous hotspots (you could include Ireland in that these days based on reports of targeting of drunk females at night) around the world if RTE don’t even report such stories?
Have they reported the story as has been the norm everywhere else?
I did a search for it on the RTE site “Marrakesh” and nothing. “Beheading” took m to a 2015 story of reported 21 beheadings by IS/ISIS
Mountain climbing I’m not going to ignore someone taking a false trail that might lead to their death. Or should I ignore it because they might know better? Same difference
Heaven forbid it might even sound like mansplain
Best leave them off to take their chances