Call for bank bailout to be used to write-off mortgages?

I should have clarified this but, yes, my plea for clemency does not extend as far as speculators. My primary concern is for owner occupiers, honest folk who are going to get caught in this shit storm.

Some of the more virulent attacks on debt forgiveness made by posters on this thread smack of extreme selfishness and a failure to sympathize.

Obviously, creating an equitable scheme to help genuine cases would be very difficult-perhaps impossible. But all this righteous indignation from the “savers” who refused to be caught up in the madness is getting a bit sickening at this stage. I mean good for you and all but not everyone who will get caught out on the ladder to nowhere was a greedy fool. The individual responsibility Vs the power of VI propaganda has been debated at length here already. I think we all know that there is truth in both arguments.

And by the way, I am a “saver”

I think some others mentioned that they only want clememcy for owner occupiers too. Average people caught up in this did not have perfect information and were even outright lied to and fed the wrong information by the media and politicians, estate agents, their friends and family - society in general.
If hyperinflation comes then we can forget about these big mortgages and peoples savings anyway. Bigger chance of this happening in the US than in Europe.
I do sympathise with these people but I think the best we can do for society as a whole is to reform the bankruptcy laws. The bankruptcy laws may be one reason the US gets on its feet quicker than we will.

While we are at it lets have clarity of information for the sale and purchase of property to prevent this happening again and a little f***ing financial education in schools mightnt do any harm either apart from disjoint the noses of the schills out there! Jaysus the crap that goes on in this country would get on yer wick.

(I apologise for the rude language I used earlier in the thread, the very idea of forgiving personal debt because you “didn’t know there would be a crash” is simply stupid). None is directed at anyone in particular here.

Ignorance is no excuse. It doesn’t get you off speeding when you are giving points (“but i thought i could drive that fast, it seemed like it was safe to do so”)

Ignorance is NO excuse. It doesn’t get your life back after being diagnosed with cancer from smoking.

We make decisions every day, based on rough knowledge, ideas, heuristics. Go down a route to work, maybe traffic maybe not. That was still your decision, you made it, you have to deal with the consequences as best YOU can.

We have massive social supports, care allowances, social housing, benefits so good that people are lying to get in here to claim benefits. If you can’t pay your bills, then you can’t pay your bills. I can’t afford a new BMW X5, so I decide myself not to buy it. However, am I supposed to support the person who decided they could but then couldn’t - so now they drive around in the X5 that I am paying for, and I drive a 15 year old Renault?

Fuck you and your X5. Fuck you and your €650,000 two bed. You gambled, you lost. You certainly weren’t going to buy me a new car or pay my mortgage if you came out of this gamble better off. I mean this in the clearest possible sense to anyone - ANYONE - who thinks that one group of people who have not caused a crash and got the country almost bankrupt, should financially support and pay for the huge debts run up by the illegal activity, underhanded dealing and the banker - developer - politican golden circle of brown envelopes. The idtio buying the new Mini Cooper S who worked as an estate egent aged 20 with no experience making €80k/year? Fuck her too. Fuck you all who think you can be a fucking child in a grown up world. The more I even think of this idea of me paying for other’s people overpriced mortgages, so that that first idiot gets off for free, then the banks get off for free for loaning that idiot the money, and the developers get off for free because the banks don’t come chasing them for the millions they owe because I am paying for the fucking private sector finance & banking idiots to stay in their jobs despite having fucked up entirely.

Every banker who approved a subuprime loan, every developer who tried to escape his debts, every person who tries to write off credit card lifestyle debt should deal with the consequences of their actions. That is my compassion - the compassion to allow these people to truly learn from their mistakes. If they do not, it will happen again. To be truly compassionate, we must remove the rose-tinted spectacles and allow them to reap every result they have sown, including job losses. Let them sign on the fucking dole. I pay for that already.

Most importantly, fuck you and your spirit of gracious fucking living.

You won’t be buying in Belmayne then?

Personally I believe that the debt could be ‘forgiven’ in the following scenario:

The person with the debt declares bankruptcy and voluntarily gives up the house without a court battle. In return the Bank writes off the leftover debt after the asset on which it was secured reverts to the Bank.

No way people should be ‘forgiven’ debt and be allowed to keep the house which they helped to drive up the price on.

Just imagine at the time you had brought in a law forbidding them from borrowing more than three times their salary… what thanks would you have gotten then?

It was their right to borrow such outrageous sums and it’s their right to live with the consequences.

While this is an emotive issue I firstly think a distinction should be drawn between people who bought property with a view to actually living in it and those who bought property for pure speculation.

In addition whether we agree or disagree as to whether debt forgiveness is in order, it should be borne in mind that some unfortunate people, possibly newly unemployed principle wage earners in family households, may be reading this forum seeking some sort of handle on how best to cushion themselves and their families from the impending tsunami. Indeed, we know that the Pin has already been a source of salvation to some who stumbled upon it and escaped a debt burdened future as a result.

While there are strongly held diverging opinions on this issue it would reflect well on the Pin and its users if a degree of decorum and respect for others was maintained while debating it.

Perhaps, one of those nice polls could be posted to see where most people stood.?

Poll Added.

Govt. should aquire a certain amount of repossessed houses from the Banks as a condition for ‘the bailout’.
preferably the newer better built ones . some stuff out there should simply be demolished as it is junk.
Quality should be assessed by an independent impartial panel of qualified experts - Architects , Town Planners, Engineers and Quantity / Chartered Surveyors only. no Bankers , EAs or politically affiliated spokesmen need apply.

These should be made available at huge discounts to those who do not own any property but who have significant savings built up - or those who own more than 1 property but have very low debts . This encourages irish savers and savvy folk who did not get into trouble to spend their money here knowing they have at last got some value.
once the savers have the option to buy in at reasonable levels ( adjusted for pre 2000 prices minimum )then they can feel less aggrieved re. some form of relief for those who are unemployed , low skilled and swamped in debt ,with no realistic prospect of repayment bar transferring the debt to their offspring. the best that can be offered to those in dire straits is help. if one has no realistic prospect of paying for something then one shouldnt be allowed to keep it.

this would go some way toward absorbing some of the oversupply. anyone with more than 1 property who cannot service their debt has forfeited their right to complain re. any discount available to those would be first time owners who have cash in excess of about 25% of the revised selling price. or something to that matter…

I dont understand the desire to demolish. This oversupply is whats going to make Ireland a competitive place once again. Near cities and within commuting zones it will bring down the cost of living and in rural areas out west where they may never sell we may just have the cheapest damn tourist properties going in the Western world. We just gotta market ourselves. Believe it or not but Ireland has great potential for walking holidays and trails and biking. Even the weather is great for it. My polish friend is back in Polska and cant go out for a jog or anything like that because its -17c in the evenings/night.

I think the normal pairing of words is rights and responsibilities.

+1

Pete, you obviously could have afforded that X5 if someone was willing to lend you the money to buy it. I mean the banks aren’t stupid now, are they? You’re *entitled *to that X5 because you are an alpha male Tiger Cub and you need to prowl the suburbs and shopping centre car parks baring your X5 teeth to show your supremacy in the urban jungle. Now that you find you can’t afford that X5 - it must be someone else’s fault, and *somebody else *must now pay for your fancy car, your overpriced house, your credit card debts, your two investment properties and your Bulgarian getaway.

That’s how the system works you see.

:laughing:

Ok a quick comment, I have recently built a 200m2 house (in rural Roscommon) for not much more than the cost of a crappy terraced house in an English midlands town. The original mortgage (for the terraced house) was £45k I sold that house for £110k(€150k) and then built myself a nice 200m2 house for €200k, I have an outstanding mortgage of €70k am I eligable for any mortgage relief!!!

I don’t think that anything can realistically be done with a lot of them BJ. The build-quality on a lot of them is so crap that I’d say if they aren’t occupied by an owner-occupier (who’s prepared to fix them up all the time) they’re going to just fall down all on their own. Tourists won’t do that. For the business to work you’d need to have a heck of a lot of tourists and the costs would be a bit higher than you think with the constant maintinance of the houses. I mean it may be worth a shot but I’d be surprised if it worked.

"Pete, you obviously could have afforded that X5 if someone was willing to lend you the money to buy it. I mean the banks aren’t stupid now, are they? You’re entitled to that X5 because you are an alpha male Tiger Cub and you need to prowl the suburbs and shopping centre car parks baring your X5 teeth to show your supremacy in the urban jungle. Now that you find you can’t afford that X5 - it must be someone else’s fault, and somebody else must now pay for your fancy car, your overpriced house, your credit card debts, your two investment properties and your Bulgarian getaway.

That’s how the system works you see."

reverse humour or psychology like this is needed to drive home the point to many people in this situation.

Its a long time ago we should have temporarily nationlised land & property but no.
We are no faced with even more fragmented madness.
Divide and conquered we will be.
What good will a mortgage relief package or bailout do us then like we could afford it anyway.

Is this not the whole point.
There is no more money.

“Won’t somebody think of the children”…sorry I mean “Won’t somebody think of the taxpayer” :slight_smile:

What about when the banks return to profitability; potentially even in 2009. What should be done with the bank’s profits? Should they be passed to the owners by way of dividend or could the profits be used to write off mortgages. The dividends paid to the shareholders in recent years were on the back of the reckless lending to the public, how about taking some of it back. How about making the bank’s shareholders fund the writedowns?