"Calling the Bottom" - Online Discussion Tomorrow Sat 12-1pm

Mods please boot this to the 'Piston if you have any issues with it being posted up here

I’m hosting a discussion on IrishDebate.com tomorrow from 12.00-1.00pm, if anyone is free you might want to drop by and have a look or hopefully contribute.

The title of the discussion is “Calling the Bottom”.

I realise that here on the 'Pin we’ve been calling bullshit on many statements that we’ve “reached the bottom” or have “turned a corner” over the past two years. However, the events inside and outside the Dáil yesterday have given me a sense of some glimmering hope for Ireland for the first time in a long time.

We finally have a definite date where we can vote to rid ourselves of this hopeless government, and as a bonus it looks as if the electorate are going to hold Fianna Fáil & the Greens accountable for the damage they have done. Hopefully the Irish public will realise the importance of this general election and we will get a high turnout of voters who have thought long & hard about who the best candidates are.

While the bottom for the Irish economy might be a long way off yet, and the bottom for property prices even further, I think that yesterday was the day that we finally hit the bottom as a nation. We can look forward to voting fresh faces & ideas into the Dáil on March 11th, to political reform and to reform of the wider structures of government and public services.

We definitely have more hardship and dark days ahead of us, but at least we have some reasons to be hopeful and optimistic about now. If that hope & optimism is enough to keep some of our brightest people here in Ireland and setting up new businesses rather than emigrating, then we might just be able to turn our country around quicker than what looked likely a few weeks or months ago.

That’s the argument I’ll be putting forward on IrishDebate.com tomorrow from 12-1pm anyhow, I’m interested to hear what the minds of the 'Pin think…


Will toddle along.

Don’t think the parliamentary system having a laxative is the sign of the bottom though - what gets flushed out is the only similarity.

This general election isn’t important, the important moment was when lenihan and cowen and the rest of those who backed them signed the deal with the imf and the eu. At that moment the ‘opposition’ [sic] had to bring the people onto the street and collapse the government - they didn’t do that. The rest is pantomime of no importance. FG and Labour throw shapes about renegotiating the deal but what they mean is fiddling around the edges of it within the overall terms specified, they too are intent on acting as debt collectors for international and domestic interests who are diametrically opposed to my well-being, your well-being and our children’s well-being. There can be no messing around about this, no farcical irish election by a bunch of mumbling thrid-rate nonentities is in any way equal to what we face. You are deluding yourself if you think ‘fresh faces’ and ‘fresh ideas’ have anything to do with the kind of people and parties who are licking their lips to get elected - they have already proven their redundancy, cowardliness and mercenary nature by their behaviour over the last 6 months and over the last 10 years before it.

And the kind of naivete you espouse is one of the main reasons why we are in the mess we’re in - a population who are too stupid and childlike in their gawking gormlessness that they look forward to a pointless exercise in theatrics by a collection of vacuous individuals as their salvation rather than getting off their arses at the exact moment that it counts to throw a treacherous government from office before it can sell the nation, by force if necessary.

Looking forward to it. Will this work on any mobile devices?

Eh… you picked the wrong person to throw this particular brickbat at!

facebook.com/pages/Call-for- … 567?v=wall

Case Study has been there, seen it, bought the t-shirt.

Stood up and was counted when it mattered and when it would have made a difference.

Did it on his own initiative and deserves enormous credit for having the courage of his convictions.

Nor is there anything wrong with what he espouses now.

He just seeks to transform the system from within - whereas you seem to be hoping for some Deus Ex Machina event to make the Irish grow up and rise up.

I know which of the the two ideals I consider to be stupid, childlike and full of naiveté.

Link to IrishDebate - for online discussion:


Fair enough, I stand corrected. I didn’t know he was one of the few who got up off his arse and actually did something.

I’ve looked at that Facebook page and on October 18th he said “Dáil protests in Dublin are one thing we can do, but people need to come up with their own ideas too. Local protests around the country, flash-mobs, posters, t-shirts, videos, profile pictures, call & email radio stations and newspapers every day… there’s a load of ways that you can put pressure on the government to let us have our say.” He was right, there was much that could be done it seemed to imaginatively rouse the nation and dismiss the government.

He then said later: “It’s time for a protest outside the Dáil. What about the day after the Budget, Wed Dec 8th? The final fig-leaf excuse for clinging on to power will be gone. No political-party banners or flags or trouble of any kind, just ordinary citizens demanding that the current government set a date in January 2011 for a General Election.”
Here I am afriad he is naive. He refuses to act on the day when others will clearly be outside the Dáil, budget day, so impotently calls for people to gather one day later, when the vote has been passed and it’s too late. He calls for a political protest but demands that those with strong political views not come along. And then the habitual, obligatory southern irish kicker: ‘no trouble of any kind’. In other words, while they rape my economic future and my child’s economic future and bring cuts that will lead to hundreds of unnecessary additional deaths per annum while bailing out foreign and domestic high finance interests I will strain to make every effort to exhibit how harmless I really am at every turn.

There were in fact only 2 choices here, only 2 ways to bring down a government as virulently and pro-actively self-serving in their treachery as this one - motivate the people to surround the Dáil a la Iceland or storm the Dáil. He tried one and when it didn’t work he refused to try the other, actively encouraged people to protest the budget the day after rather than try to shut it down and stop it on the day.

You reap what you sow. You sow harmlessness, you get raped. That has been the history of Ireland since the foundation of this state.

These were just the text comments, the video post production will be later??

Exactly. I don’t want to add to the cynicism as there’s already far too much of it in the air - and at least the OP is actually doing something instead of sitting on his ass watching Big Brother like most of the sheeple - but I have seen no indications whatever that FG//Labour plan to seriously re-negotiate the deal. Sure, there’ll be some tinkering around the hedges to appease the masses, then back to business as usual.

Fire me a PM when you’ve decided the time and place for your revolution. I’ll meet you there with my pike & maybe some Braveheart-style warpaint.

In fact I’ll turn up a few minutes early to apologise for my naivete getting us into the mess we’re in, it’s the least I can do…

Don’t mean it too personally, I’m just being forthright in my expression. You appear to have done quite a lot, including the video conference you organised yesterday which I attended and which I applauded you for your initiative. Nevertheless there were only 2 options here in the face of a criminally renegade class - the irish upper middle class - and their political and media enablers: surround the Dáil and collapse the government or storm the Dáil and collapse the government. These people are without a mandate and went to court to prevent themselves from being required to seek a mandate and without a mandate they laid 85 billion on our backs with more to come that most dopey people don’t understand is coming.

These people are criminals and are clearly determined to wipe away any opposition and any intelligent and justified critique of their actions. You need merely look at Cowen’s repeated barking and snarling at various press conferences to see that this guy is a third rate thug and buffoon who completely disregards the people in pursuit of his own ends. You merely need to recall Ahern smirkingly saying he won what we all know to be backhanders when he said he won it on the horses, to much guffaws from the gallery.

These people are criminals. They are raping the country. Ahern is getting ready to sell 7% of the land area of the country to private, probably foreign interests. The upper middle class have done a deal with foreign interests in the form of the IMF and EU which makes no economic sense and will lead to certain default, thereby knowingly setting up our national resources as assets to be stripped in part compensation for this certain default at a time not long in the future. These people act with full foreknowledge and forethought.

Some pathetic parliamentary gradualism in the form of supporting parties and individuals who have enabled this nonsense for a decade with their pretend ‘opposition’ will get you nowhere. And the stakes are too high and too immediate. The greens, for example, are putting water meters into people’s houses, allegedly for environmental reasons. Except it isn’t environmental reasons of course, it’s the first necessary step to privatisation of the water supply to pay off the debts that Cowen and Ahern have laid upon us. They will force you and your children to pay for the very water that falls from the sky to pay off their gambling.

The Irish and in particular the southern Irish look with ridiculous naivete to the party political system of this country to help them. Help yourselves for fucks sake and use your brains.