Childrens Hospital Refused Planning


#61

And have to train the drivers what to do? And pay them extra for the stress of it all? Are you kidding?


#62

:smiley:
True, stuff the kids, so long as the luas drivers don’t have to deal with anything untoward

They’ll be looking for high vis and site boots/hats for the duration of the build


#63

This took 50 months.

There is something badly wrong with our planning system. Essentially something of strategic national priority took a back seat to what comes down to subjective aesthetics.

The original ABP rationale for rejecting the Mater site is worth a look:

Most of you have been to the north inner city of Dublin. I quite like its feel. A lot of people find it dreary and ugly and I completely understand. To think that the visual amenity would have been tangibly disrupted by this building is absurd.

In the interim I have had several trips to Crumlin (short and long stay). The place is decrepit.


#64

The current media reports suggest that the questions about the maternity hospital aren’t so much about where it is built as about who manages it, which is an entirely different kettle of worms…

Oddly enough, there was once a convenient site at more or less the same location, but it’s now occupied by a mostly vacant office complex. :frowning:


#65

My understanding is that building work won’t start until the row is resolved though… even though the money has been signed off by the HSE.


#66

Is that a sport stadium or a hospital?


#67

Ah, but the Mater site was also a shit location poorly served by public transport with easy access to nowhere.


#68

Total nonsense. Pick a point on the island with the minimum average travel time to every inhabitant. It is Dublin airport. The Mater is 15 minutes south of that. James’s is also very well located for a national children’s hospital too btw.

Anyway ABP rejected the Mater on the grounds of its visual impact including (and I kid you not) that it could make *O’Connell st *more ugly!

Four years wasted purely on the grounds of some subjective aesthetic judgments. Also at a time when more construction workers unemployed than ever too.


#69

Very true. They need to get on with it. The objecters to a children’s hospital are in need of help.


#70

It is in it’s hole 15 minutes south of that. I travelled on the 41/33 for many years. I worked in Dublin airport and lived in the city and lived in Swords and went to school in Dublin. Don’t forget, most visits to the children’s hospital are not emergency. They are daytime visits for treatment, visits to children. Access is important.

edit: I agree with you about the aesthetics argument; ABP should not have an aesthetics remit, but unfortunately that is what is in the planning laws. “Amenity” is used as a catchall by planners all over Ireland to stop what they don’t want.

Mind you, they might have done with that in San Francisco… does anyone seriously like this:
theguardian.com/artanddesign … ingue-ikea


#71

Almost every single journey in Ireland is lower by public transport, up to a factor of ten in some cases.

Most visits will be non-emergency and will arrive by car.


#72

Not to Dublin airport it isn’t! You may be able to say that in Dublin, but it isn’t true for the rest of the country, even if you are on mainline rail.


#73

Even if you drive public transport is still relevant. So many people I know driving up from the country prefer parking at Red Cow and getting the Luas into town for matches etc. This gives James’ a clear advantage over the Mater


#74

I think that last statement shows you where the priorities of the so called “Sisters of Charity” lie.

The plans for the new Maternity hospital are finished, the funding is allocated, the HSE, Dept of Health and the NMH have signed of on it. The planning application was ready and was supposed to have been submitted in December 2015 but at the last minute St Vincent’s and their 100% shareholders the Sisters of Charity decided not to sign it unless all the staff of the NMH resigned to become fulltime St Vincent’s employees and the NMH board and Management structure were dissolved to be replaced by a single Clinical director answerable only to the St Vincent’s board.

Of Note St Vincent’s Public and Private have never been allowed by the board to perform a male or female sterilisation procedure!

Naturally the NMH has refused to operate a hospital under St Vincent’s proposed regressive restrictive governance structure.

St Vincent’s being a private limited company 100% owned and operated by the Sisters of charity cannot be forced to do anything they dont want to by anyone (except maybe God)

So this deal to build a new maternity hospital is dead in the water. Costs already spent on this project by the taxpayer I would imagine are in the order of €4 million.


#75

Actually SVUH is largely funded by the taxpayer. So while the government can’t technically force them to do anything, they can in practice tell them what to do.

The thing is, one can see both sides of the argument (and I don’t for a moment believe that there’s ideological differences at stake; it’s a power struggle between two big orginisations). But there must be a “right” way to colocate a maternity and an adult hospital. Figure out the right way (looking at other countries) and do it. This does not take months. But it does take a Minister who’s not afraid to kick add and take names.

By the way I also don’t believe that they asked anyone to resign. That’s not the way TUPE works.


#76

In practice the Government cant cut funding to hospitals without creating a political crisis and hardship for patients.

I respectfully disagree. We have seen what poor governance in Galway, Portlaoise, Sligo, Cavan, Drogheda and Portiuncula did for maternity service in recent years. In all of these examples the governance of the maternity hospital fell under that of a general hospital. In all cases that governance structure was criticised. In 2015, maternity services at Portlaoise were brought under the governance of the Coombe Women and Infants Hospital to address the patient safety concerns. It is the position of all stakeholders (except St Vincents) that the governance structure of the existing maternity hospital is the most appropriate governance structure.

You dont even have to look that far just read this thread! The Children’s Hospital will be located on the Site of St James’s and it will retain its own board and management structure, The Coombe is locating to St James site and will retain its own Board and Management Structure, The Rotunda is due to move to Blanchardstown Hospital site and will also retain its own board and management structure. The minister did look at this and as he staeted it
was his intention that

irishtimes.com/news/health/g … -1.2623023
You even dont have to look beyond the existing St Vincent’s Site! Breast Check has been happily Co Located on their site with its own board of management and governance structure. Make no mistake this was a power and control grab.
The NMH move to the St Vin site was always co-location from as far back as 1998 and the design of the new hospital including on the stalled planning application incorporated all of the administrative offices etc for retaining its management structure. about 18 mths ago the Sisters of Charity tried to move the goal posts.

The media spat does not represent an argument it represents the end of behind the scenes negotiation that has failed. There is zero chance that a new maternity hospital will be build on the site of St Vin. Its over, its dead, its an ex infrastructure project.

As I highlighted before the Sisters of Charity would rather sell a site to McNamara than help build a maternity hospital. That says it all.


#77

I am beyond flummoxed that the state can wholly fund the current and capital budget of an organisation for 50 years and yet fail to leverage control over its spending.

A group of celibate, cloistered women of median age 65 is about as socially representative as a group of men who have achieved parenthood by age 17. Should we give them control over large tracts of state spending in perpetuity?


#78

SVHG pushing back in Business Post. Accusing the NMH of playing the Catholic card (Cheapest shot I’ve seen in a long time), saying they’d have no issue with IVF, sterilisations etc.


#79

Oh I agree, and the staff need to get there every day. That’s not an insignificant consideration for a service organisation.


#80

Eh. no, it’s ideological, at least in part. Hence the success of the Coombe… many women choose a hospital that prioritises their life.

edit: qualify…