Damien Kiberd:Forgive borrowers or forget recovery

**Damien Kiberd on Private Sector Debt Forgiveness

billtormey.ie/2010/07/11/dam … rgiveness/

It’s interesting to contrast this article with his earlier “Come on in, the debt is lovely” article in 2005 :blush:
business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/b … 532227.ece

Show me the money, Bill…

Do most companies not de-leverage by paying down their debts?

Not dese days…

The Damien Kiberd article is quoted extensively by Fine Gael Councillor Dr. Bill Tormey

billtormey.ie/2010/07/11/dam … rgiveness/

Not always. There is such a thing called debt for equity, Independent News & Media did it when they couldn’t pay their debts.

There’s one slight problem with the personification of “the State” there. It is not an individual with its own resources – it is the collective resources of the citizens, latterly mismanaged by a bunch of corrupt clowns. To say that it now needs to take its share of culpability would be like saying that a burglarised householder should be billed for the burglaries committed with the crowbar stolen from his shed. There’s something particularly Irish about conceiving of “the State” as some personal entity with infinitely deep pockets.

The biggest problem for me is if that if many of the indebted people are bailed out, they will simply do it all over again.

But I’d much rather hand the money to a struggling household, than to a bankrupt bank. If managed correctly, then I might just be OK with this. It’d be fine I guess if enough terms and conditions are added.

Some parts of this aren’t that bad as long as it’s the banks that take the hit.

The debtors getting an interest free period sound like a good idea so they can get the capital reduced, by selling off assets etc, at least there is some responsibility there and if they have to sell stuff off they are unlikely to do it again.

Get fooked, I’m not culpable for these debts thank you very much. This should rest firmly on the banks shoulders and theirs alone.

Cut it off from 2007?, would somebody think of the plight of Alison O’Riordan please, on that basis alone it should be extended to 2008:


Can we get a crying smiley please? Or maybe a heart bleeding?

The banks can’t take the hit though, they’re already insolvent.

The only way we could see this scheme is if the Irish State was willing to take the losses.

We’re being overwhelmed in the Irish media with this kind of rubbish attempting to normalise this notion that private debt is some kind of public responsibility - and its coming from the very people who were the cheerleaders who led the naive and greedy into this mess in the first place. The scale and the cheek of it all though takes your breath away.

Is it any wonder that anyone in Ireland with get up and go will soon have got up and gone?

The govt doesn’t have 7mln to spare never mind 7bln. Utterly pointless discussion and article.

Its called capitalism.

The most ridiculous part of it is that, despite the overwhelming evidence that it never existed to begin with, many supposedly smart people, including many around here, still believe in the rubbish they were taught in Leaving Cert or Undergraduate Economics modules about the existence of free markets, as well as the independence and the desirability of same - this despite the fact that said curricula were, in many instances, actually written by those who cheerled the boom in the first instance, as well as the subsequent bailout.

Thus has it ever been and will it ever be so long as people rely on lazy, reflex-based ideological stances conceived of during the industrial revolution on both the right and the left which have little or no relevance to the world we live in today.

Its actually funny simply cos its true…

In fact they are taught a particular view of the history of economics starting with Adam Smith then moving to Jean Baptise Say and a few others before moving onto Keynes. They are taught econometrics, that indices like GNP/GDP and CPI are an accurate measure of economic activity and that government intervention can smooth out the ups and downs of the market economy. This is then reinforced in history lessons where they learn that FDR saved America from the depression and DeValera was the man who won us independence from the Brits and defied Churchill in the war and bought electrification to the country with the building of Ardnacrushsa. They are taught that emigration from the 19th century to the 1950s is the way it always has been for Ireland, that people would starve if we all stayed here. Then they might talk about TK Whittaker and how he lead the adoption of Keynesianism in Ireland and how state intervention like pre-built factories and the IDA bought industry to Ireland. They are taught that Irelands entry to the EEC in 1973 was a godsend with agricultural subsidy guaranteeing farmers an income and upgrading our roads through grants.

Economics as taught in Ireland is that the free market has been conquered and that government central planning and intervention is necessary for economic growth and stability.

A Study Guide to Henry Hazlitt’s The Failure of the “New Economics” → mises.org/pdf/failure_of_new_eco … _guide.pdf

Except the State owns the bank that the struggling household owes money to.
As long as you’re (Lenihan) going to “save the banks” then *any *bailout of the indebted is really just a transfer payment to the creditor.

We need to prioritise a new, modern, reasonable Bankruptcy Act and if it isn’t too late: we need to wind the two big banks into one; let all other banks that can’t stand on their own fail including hurting the bondholders and the deposit holders. As the single BigBank keeps the country ticking over (just about) we incentivise a number of private bank startups by offering targeted state guarantees for them (with obvious conditions), perhaps combined with a modest initial equity injection. Oh shit… it is too late. XX

And all of this is absolutely wrong and your man Mise is absolutely right? Give us a break. :unamused:

Fact is Keynesian theory is the basis of how modern economics is taught in secondary and 3rd level education in this country. Ask yourself why does the ESRI gets its forecasts wrong? Why did the quants get it so wrong, what broke their complex mathematical models?

Maybe you ask yourself why we constantly seem to go through booms and busts? The Austrian school and Marxists put forward a their own theories briefly outlined in the articles below.

What next? A bailout for those who cant meet their rent payments? Bailout for car owners?
Should everyone just stop paying their mortgages now in anticipation of this proposed bailout?

'Fraid so.

Do the best you can to make the patient comfortable.

Whereas the reality is that the free market has captured government, hence democratic capitalism and for the libertarians who have taken a liberty, it’s a fecking field day in their search to concentrate the resources of the planet into ever fewer hands, after all isn’t that what liberty is all about…

Nice work, keep up the subterfuge mate…

The problem with how economics is taught, is that the veil isn’t lifted and shifted into actual political economy, economics is meaningless without the context of politics, politics are tall he machinations whereby the various theories of economics are promulgated and the whole host of unanticipated and anticipated second round effects take then place and the public politics of the day reacts to this…

However, as with the straight line that can be drawn from imperialism → colonialism → mercantilism → capitalism → neoliberalism / conservatism, very little changes within the core philosophy…