Damien Kiberd:Forgive borrowers or forget recovery

I think Plainview is correct. A new, balanced, bankruptcy act coupled with ending the Nama madness is the way forward. The bank bondholders need to get torched.

So we have a choice here, we can bail out all the people in debt and put the rest of us in debt by increasing taxes or we can let them pay their own debt and the rest of us who didnt subscribe to this borrowing madness get on with their lives?
Hmmm hard one that, ok no thanks Damien go sell crazy somewhere else. Oh and by the way the recovery will therefore only come when we have done the right things and not the easy things politically.

Eh, no you’re getting the higher taxes either way… Stick or twist? :laughing:

There are times you amaze me about things you know TUG (this isnt one of them) and how I pay or avoid tax is something you dont know so I’ll fold. :wink:

And there was I thinking you were talking about the general welfare and grand principles, oh well… :stuck_out_tongue:

“Forgive borrowers or forget recovery”

Knocking 10% off under water mortgages would push the Governments finances over the edge, and for what benefit?
Knocking a mortgage repayment from 1500 p/m to 1350 p/m is a nice gesture and would be welcomed with open arms by the mortgage holder, but all they will do is upgrade to the latest iPhone and get a 3-D Plasma…hardly much net benefit to our economy.

Naturally, no-one wants a situation where people cannot put food on the table for their family just because they are overwhelmed with debt. Of course there should be a process where people like that are put back on a sound footing.

However, there is no reason that those who can pay, should have any debt forgiveness. They have options, like driving a second-hand Golf instead of a new BMW X5. Shopping at Lidl instead of M&S and Superquinn

Lets not forget that Mortgage Holders are already being massively subsidised by the banks / Govt. Who really thinks that a 2.75% mortgage is profitable to the banks? Its not. Nowhere close.

Yet another article suggesting we push the country closer to that cusp of Bankruptcy to avoid a “Japan Type Scenario”…trust me, from an Irish point of view, if we are where Japan is now in 10 years, we will be very very lucky!

Listen, is this post not the crux of the entire kite-flying exercise? It’s Fine Gael trying to win a pre-Christmas election. Massive sweeping debt write-off where everyone gets to keep their X5 is not going to happen for myriad reasons outlined by those better-informed than I, but most people don’t know that. It’s just an attempt to buy an election without spending any money.

TUG said

I’d love to talk about grand principles and learn about real socialism TUG but we’re in the wrong country as those of us on the pin who may believe in them are outnumbered in daily life by VIs and I would guess by several thousand to one

eh, I don’t know where you studied economics BR but I studied it in TCD and I can tell you that Sean Barrett, Antoin Murphy et al are far from Keynsians. In fact TCD provided much of the D&H idiocy that underlined the PDs free market fundamentalism that has resulted in the near collapse of the health system in Ireland (in concert with FFs ‘buy everyone to do it’ tactics). Yes they teach the fundamentals of Keynes and in general mainstream economics recognises the state as the preeminent economic actor, particularly in small countries. BUt read anything Barrett has written on transport and you’ll see that his prejudice is clearly anti state. Right or wrong Keynesian ideas were out of fashion for at least the last 2 decades in most economics depts. They have been completely seduced by Chicago, which is THE main reason that they all got it so wrong wrt the asset bubbles that emerged since the mid 90s as the FIRE economy triumphed. Nevermind Mises.

Yup. The new keynsianism is mostly the same old supply side nonsense. Deficits don’t matter. Cut taxes to stimulate growth, especially taxes on the rich…

I dont believe that you actually believe all that BR.

Offering an unproven theory based on the teachings of Mises as some sort of evidential base to denounce an opposing theory (in this case Keynesianism) is ridiculous IMO - and thats not a defence of Keynes.

Possibly our biggest flaw as human beings is the need to “believe” in systems conceived of from within our incomplete knowledge base.

How much of our brain do we use FFS - and we think we can organise the world according to whatever we deem fashionable on the day thats in it. Madness.

Boy Racer has been offering us a steady diet of this libertarian/ Mises bollixology for months and this is the first time hes got serious gip. I’m shocked.

As opposed to your “happily in Australia and telling us what to do from the other side of the world” bollixology?

What difference does it make if posters are in Australia or not?
Soon, most of our finest will be abroad. They are still Irish citizens with an interest in their country.
Buereucrat fuckers in Brussels, Washington, and London have been telling us what to do for over a decade, maybe decades and no-one bats an eyelid.
Yet emigre’s are barred from having an opinion?

The health system didnt “collapse” due to “free market fundamentalism”. It failed because the socialist public sector employees refuse to work unless theyre paid lottery jackpot salaries and refuse to be flexible in how they work. Public sector greed is what destroys the health service.

Secondly, Ditch Dweller, you are a hypocrite because you have moved to the USA to enjoy the lifestyle, wealth and opportunities that free market capitalism has created there, and you refuse to live in the socialist economy you claim to support.

Youre like all socialists. You want to enjoy the goods and services that capitalism creates, with an income provided to you by the state. Parasites!

Totally agree with you.

Reading through this thread is like trying to referee a fight over a bean bag between a bunch of six year olds. It’s no wonder the country is screwed.

The health system in Ireland is screwed not for money reasons but because its processes suck. It has also ballooned in size on the admin side since I have been living here which tells me that management - as in most companies I’ve worked - is looking after itself and not its frontline staff. It is not helped when the Minister for Health chooses the US as a country to look at to see how to run a health system as Mary Harney did. I’ve lived in France, Belgium and Germany. The one I would choose is Germany because although the French system and the Belgium systems work, the French system is effectively bankrupt and the Belgian system requires additional voluntary insurance.

Only an idiot would assume that free market capitalism is what they have in the States. What they have is dictat by wealth. Ireland’s image of the US appears to be limited to a certain strata of society and does not, for example, take into account the downside of the American system. Check out the red states and the dust bowl to know just how lopsided the US economy is and know also that most of their bankruptcys prior to the property issues are linked to healthcare costs and not asset accumulation.

I’m sick to the teeth of listening to so called economic debate here because to me, there’s a fine line between economics and political ideology. If you look at David McWilliams’ writing, very little of it is based on anything other than a political ideology.

The world is not binary. There is no 1 right way to do stuff. There are plenty of wrong ways to do things but those are not necessarily economic based, but process based. For example, we got this stupid public transport mess in Dublin for ideological free trade reasons with the result that implementing integrated ticketing is almost impossible because of the revenue slice up issue with all the different operators. This could have been averted if the proper legal frame work was in place to facilitate the part privatisation of the supply of public transport in Ireland. Instead, we have to rely on an 1934 act for the provision of transport.

This is not an ideological, socialism vs capitalism problem. This is a cultural issue called “Ah sure it’ll be alright”, a culture which apparently was prevalent in the banks even as they were going broke.

I like my life for the most part and I’m happy to continue living in Dublin because I’ve created a life that works for me and for all those things I can’t get here, which is a lot of stuff as it happens, there’s the internet. But jesus christ the country is full of idiots and they have bar arguments like this one which will - ultimately - achieve nothing or worsen the problem as people run off to try and prove their pet theory is right.

If you think Ireland is socialist its no wonder you don’t know what you’re talking about. Calina has already pointed out that its the chefs that have screwed up the health service. I’ve known quite a few frontliners in Ireland, I was raised by one of them and the culture among frontline health providers is nothing like you make out. What the PDs/FF brought to the table was to double down on bad management and ensure that new beds would be exclusively for profit. More rentiers to the trough!

I don’t regard myself as a socialist but your idea that socialists want to kick it while others pay their way is laughable. Welfare was the creation of the Social Democrats, in large part to protect capital against the socialists. You need to bone up on the 20th century.

And for what its worth I moved to the USA to get the fuck out of Ireland and most of my outgoings that sustain and reproduce my life here go to oligopolists. I haven’t been seen a free market since i visited the black market in East Germany in the 80’s! Free markets do not exist when it comes to anything of economic significance.

Calina said:

Well said.

Idiotic statement.

Surely the “greed” to which you refer would have been the cornerstone of the ideology advocated by the Thatcher/Reaganites since the 70s, based as it was on the assumption that each individual’s “freedom” to maximise their own interest is not only natural but actually a necessary requirement of same. Unions/collective movements of the less economically powerful sectors of society (based on a calculation that collective rather than individual action will extract a more favourable outcome for them personally) would appear to me to be the entirely logical outcome of such an ideology/system of life.

Indeed, it seems only a libertarian could fail to spot the irony in having to regulate the possibility of same out of existence in order to allow the “free” market do its stuff…

Libertarianism now finds itself in the position whereby it is actually making the same argument that Communism has been making since 1989 (and for which it has continuously slated the left) ie that it was never actually implemented, and if only it had been implemented properly everything would have been rosy.

The one thing it seems to have gotten right would appear to be its calculation that humanity is doomed to repeat its idiotic devotion to varying “belief” systems over and over - without of course recognising itself as a prime examples of such folly…

Libertarianism and hardline leftism - The FF and FG of ideological belief systems - both based entirely in the dumbed down material world without any concession to the higher sensibilities of human experience…in essence, deterministic fatalism at its ugliest