Denis O'Brien buys French Ambassadors residence + Embassy

I hope DO’B still has his FTB status. Purely just to wind up a few Joe Duffy types.

The Embassy office property across the road is included in the 80million.

Just to be clear…you don’t agree with the principle of progressive taxation under any circumstances?

The man likes money, it’s as simple as that…

Is it fair that we all pay the same VAT??? Whether you’re Dinny O’Brien or just lifting crates for a living… It depends on your view of the world…

When you’ve lifted a box or two it gives you a sense of perspective… :laughing:

In all reality, the likes of Denis O’Brien are free to make shedloads of money under the current system without anyone questioning the corporate tax arrangements and indeed all other favourable business arrangements that allow for the maximising of PRIVATE welfare versus PUBLIC welfare.

ARW will tell me that jobs would go south and the economy with it if we introduced harsher (or fairer, depending on your POV) taxation on ENTREPRENEURIAL EMPIRE BUILDING… But I’d say this, there’s huge question marks over what human activity is actually creating wealth and value, alot of jobs and business disciplines simply shouldn’t exist because they destroy things that the vast majority value…

Not me personally because I’m a post modernist living in a deconstructed worldview and I’ve had a lot of pints since some multi millionaires won a football match and a league championship in a foreign land and I somehow identified with this… ARW identifies with Denis O’Brien and that’s his prerogative…

What’s the stamp duty on 80mil?

Never mind, just saw the 7M

BTW, as a French (& Irish) citizen I’m deeply outraged that the embassy was sold…

Again, you have the relative value debate…

Lay off the guy for feck sake. Even if he keeps his income tax to a minimum the consumption taxes he pays must be astronomical. The stamp duty on the house purchase alone is more tax than any of us will pay over our entire lifetime. I don’t know how you can call someone who is just about to write a EUR7m cheque to the exchequer a parasite! Very wealthy people the world over “manage” their tax affairs to pay as little as is legally required. O’Brien is no different.

Ireland is a beneficiary of corporate tax management (Sandisk, Microsoft, Shire etc) because we have a low corporate tax environment. Nobody complains about that even though other countries’ loss is our gain. We have very high personal tax rates at the top end, so it is natural that a businessman will use whatever legal means are available to minimise his tax bite. That’s the way business world and the tax world interact. I’d do exactly the same. I would have no moral qualms about it either, in the same way the government has no moral qualms about requisitioning 53% of a higher-rate payers’ salary.

Erm, there’s quite a few threads on here where that very elephant in the corner is dredged up… I certainly complain about it because I believe the orientation of our society is atavistic at best and certainly not useful into the future…

But that’s breaking the social contract!

It’s ok to break the social contract in Ireland as far as I’m concerned:

  • Charles Haughey
  • Bertie Ahern
  • Health service
  • Quangoism
  • “Planning”
  • etc.

If the gombeens were serious about running a country, they’d be incentivising people to participate in nation-building/society. In Ireland, instead of encouraging citizens to participate and play an active role in society, we just f*&k people over. Simple as.

Social contract my ass.

Any link between how O’Brien et al “manage” their affairs as best they can and the likes of Bertie managing his own “affairs” to the best of his ability, albeit at a lower rung on the social ladder?

The method may be different but the underlying philosophy seems to be the same and it seems to seep down.

Of course, when applied at the bottom end it tends to elicit a different reaction

Maybe we should adopt the American model, if you are an Irish Citizen, you pay Irish taxes, even if you don’t set foot in the country for years on end. If you want to stop paying Taxes, stop being an Irish citizen, easy!

I’m assuming O’Brien is above board on all his tax dealings, so not quite the same.

My point is that if you are a businessman and there are millions of euro at stake you will use the best tax planning at your disposal. The very same applies to how you run the tax affairs of a corporation. The tax code is your moral compass and provided you keep to the letter of the law you will use the law to gain the most profitable outcome.

It might seem a bit cold-hearted, but that’s the way businesses are run and O’Brien is a businessman. It’s got nothing to do with irish gombeenism either - it happens the world over.

Now it probably means that our laws defining residency are too lax and need to be tightened, but until such time as they are, O’Brien is doing nothing wrong.

I dont disagree with you - Im not actually criticising the guy outright.

My point would be that IMO the same philosophy applied in different spheres produces very different results - from the top of the pile right down to the bottom

My understanding is d.o.b. does not pay tax in any country due to his ‘residency’ in Malta.

He travels everywhere on his private jet.In most countries air traffic control and safety is paid for by taxpayers,directly and indirectly.

A portion of the tax you pay on an airline ticket pays for this ATC system.Private jets dont pay this indirect tax and a survey last year showed that taxpayers and ordinary flyers subsidise the airports and ATC systems for these global tax evaders.

My Business Organisation teacher in secondary school was an old dear but where business was concerned she was all business. Years after she taught me I realised that while teaching me she summarised “The Goal” by Dr. Eliyahu M. Goldratt in a single sentence: “Businesses are in business for one reason and one reason only - to make money”. Ergo if we don’t like the way they do business we need to regular and monitor them. And she had the same attitute towards taxation. She felt it was not only morally correct but a moral imperative for citizens to arrange their affairs to pay as little tax as possible. Not to evade the tax-man (which is illegal) but to avoid him (which is perfectly legal). By so doing holes in the tax-system are quickly exposed and closed if need be.

I don’t necessarily like that big-earners don’t pay the same taxes I do. But on the other hand if we try to force them to pay then they may just take their ball and go home. And as has rightly been observed elsewhere on this forum a small percentage of a large amount is better than a large percentage of nothing. :wink:

Surely if you want to land a plane at an airport you have to pay for the privilege of landing rights, same as docking a boat at a marina or parking your car in car park in town?

Also in respect of DOB, if I was in his position (and Im not unfortunately) I wouldnt want to pay a penny more in any tax to a government who squandered billions over the last decade on tax relief for developers and voting systems etc etc. Would you? I just dont have a choice he does and fairplay as he pays in other ways because its hard to be totally free of the revenue.

I’ll add to that people seem to forget he is an employer in this state and his companies pay PRSI for his employees, the employees themselves pay their tax from employment and his buying a property means he will end up paying some kind of tax on that.

I think this question as to should he be paying tax like the rest of us just doesnt cut the mustard because either directly or indirectly he will pay some taxes small though they maybe in terms of his income but huge in terms of your income or mine.

Sorry, but this is typical irish drivel - he’s not so bad, he pays a few taxes indirectly, who cares if he avoids most of them.

The main companies that made him rich relied on government granted licenses, which of course means any company with half a brain in that position will make a certain amount of money and need a certain number of employees. Likewise the skills required are not in the running of these companies, but the acquisition of the license - and the less said about that whole area the better. And when he sold on those companies, who’s value was entirely dependant on the government granted license they acquired, he paid AFAIK 0% tax. A national hero he aint.

Nobodies painting DOB out to be a national hero he took advantage of an opportunity and did well from it, the same tax opportunities are available to you if you get to that level, but to say its drivel thats just being obstinate and stupid.

He may have been granted the license he made so much money from but he had to compete for it with other companies and I assume his company offered a better deal than the other companies out there which proves either he was willing to take a chance or to pay more for it in which case the exchequer won out.

If you want to pick on someone or thing who are say one thing and do another then try U2 on for size, they tell governments and people to give more foreign aid and then dont pay tax in the country they come from either.

If you can tell me you would rather pay tax than avoid it you are either a saint a liar or stupid to be happy that an ignorant shower of morons get to spend a large percentage of your income on their mistakes i.e. the present government because if I had my option I wouldnt give them the steam off it as they are wastrels.

Would you rather O’Brien made nothing and earned say €100k as an employee paying 41% tax and 6% PRSI adding up to vey little over his working lifetime? Or does it make sense that he pays much more tax through companies he owns and purchases he makes regardless of what percentage of income he has? Get real RB

I nearly assploded when I read this!

well done Chomp (a sadly missed chocolate confection)

Cough cough…

oh the wonder of such innocence