Eilis O'Hanlon will take to the streets against property tax

independent.ie/opinion/analy … 82921.html

Will the Garda Reserve take me on at short notice?
I want to be there wielding the baton when this happens.

Messing with the state is obviously not enough to get out of bed for.

Could prove interesting, splits the country (again).

Some have recently paid either stamp duty or a “development fee” for a one-off new build, a sum amounting to several thousand.

Many have either not moved or are renting and have not paid a penny (since the abolishion of rates).

Perhaps one possible solution would be to phase in the new tax, starting with those that have not paid at all (second group) followed later by those have paid recently.

Well, since those who bought recently have contributed more to the need to bring in a property tax, I think you have your logic on its head. Probably only those with mortgages should pay. Or those who don’t currently pay tax. Or anyone with an O’, Ni, Fitz or Mc in their surnames.

Either you have a tax to pay for services and all who can afford it pay for it or you don’t.

So, in essence, you’re suggesting a Not Buying Tax?

So, the next time I pass a petrol staion and don’t fill-up I become liable for NBT?
The next time I browse for books but don’t buy, I incur NBT?
The next time I go to a restaurant and only order the starter, NBT on the main course?
The next time I go into a bank and lodge money, NBT on the loan I didn’t take out?
The next time I rent a car, I pay NBT on the one I should have bought?

No way Barney Gumble.

Property Tax like so many other taxes in this country, as elsewhere, is destined to be wasted paying for wasteful services that the public would be better paying for themselves is they really wanted them and that would would understand how much such services actually really cost.

Property Tax is not necessary.

Taxation is not the problem here.

The problem here is a lack of Government, Banking and Personal Responsiblity that sat on top of the biggest Credit Bubble of all time and when the facts came home to roost, those who had dreams of being millionaires by buying and selling properties and developments at ever increasing prices are the ones who need to take responsibility.

Taxation in this country is a joke. Generally I’m now against paying any tax but my PAYE salaried job means that I generally get screwed over every week.

Sure, I know that the government does provide me with services but I’m not happy with the efficiency of those. Indeed I work in the Goverment so I should know now that such tax is in the main going to be wasted.

There’s no reason to introduce new taxes to fix government corruption. That’s the real problem here.

wheres the fuvking anarchists around ere?
I didn’t have you lot as a bunch of goldman sachs bail out BAU tax needing slaves
Let the gov rot, no more taxes
Especially you YM, I thought you had sense

And as one of the writers in the Sunday Times property section pointed out a few weeks back, valueing properties for tax might be a little challenging, especially in rural areas. He also pointed out that it would hit Dublin harder than the rest of the country.

Edit: I should have read the article…

Yeah.

While we might have to increase existing ones to pay for past follies and to rebuild the social insurance fund (i.e. temporarily increase PRSI rates), we need to be very careful about permanent new taxes. Once they exist, they won’t ever go away.

@boomshackala
I doubt this is Goldman Sachs, this is people who use Goldman Sachs as a broker. All I am saying is that the truth is no more exposed by this list. For all we know, Seanie Fitz could own all the outstanding bonds and have bought them through a variety of brokers. I’m not saying that is the case, but this is as much as we know.

Personally, I still hold to my belief that it is the great and the good, the Olympic rings of Ireland that are the ultimate beneficiaries. That the bailout is for their benefit and their benefit alone (whether on the bondholder or the borrower side). They are the bondholders, they are the borrowers.

What I am commenting on is the fact that those who have recently paid stamp duty or a development fee have in fact being paying so that everyone else doesnt pay.

+1

We dont need to raise any taxes. We need to cut spending.

Actually, you need to do both…

Well maybe the article had this much of a point, that there isnt necessarily a vast pot of gold in CASH just waiting for some politicians to find a pair and tax it…

EG some “left” politicians are saying/implying all we need is a “wealth” tax to find 3 Bn or so…

actually collecting 3Bn in cash just like that might be harder than they think…

Ireland is one of the most under taxed countries in the world. There is also plenty of room for- and sense in- adjusting the tax code to capture more tax.

Define undertaxed?
Explain how with “progressive” taxation the burden does not fall equally on all taxpayers?
What are the consequences of tax rises on production and employment in this country?
What drives the black economy?
What lessons were learned from the 1980s taxation policies?
Why not reduce the tax burden by privatising the public sector?
What is the impact of taxation on savings and investment?
Why are we nationalising banks instead of seeking to flog them to the highest bidder?
What about the impact of carbon tax on the poor?

The very “socialists” who want high taxes and claim to be helping the average person are reducing everyone’s standard of living. The interest paid to support the debt is the single greatest transfer of wealth to the so called rich than anything else. The whole idea was the capitalists were exploiting the working man, yet it is the government exploiting the working class while claiming to care about them! This is made worse by the fact we are in the EURO and cannot default by devaluing our currency, this means that the debt burden increases in real terms.

Rising taxes are NOT a zero sum game, as the government increase taxes on the productive sector of the economy less is produced and businesses at the margins fold, thereby increasing unemployment and emigration. The increased costs of taxation gradually work their way into the cost of production (i.e. the costs are passed on to the consumer where possible) and show up in the consumer price index. Increased taxation puts upward pressure on wages as employees seek higher compensation to cover the cost of living rises.

You will no doubt have read about the currency wars and the rise of the EURO, well here is the problem, every country in the Eurozone (EZ) gave up its currency and it’s economic sovereignty, there is no more defaulting on debt by devaluation. This is the problem, each country in the EZ issues it’s own debt, but, investors have a preference for French and German debt so forcing the value of the EURO higher making repayment for countries like Ireland even higher. Instead of devaluing the debt it is appreciating in real terms while the Irish economy is declining. Ouch!

Roll on 2011 when we go back to the debt markets…

Ah, so we cant raise taxes at all no? Ever? Nonsense. I seem to remember that industry wasnt too concerned about the higher capital gains taxes that pertained in Ireland during the 90s before McCreevy came in and halved them. In fact, the highest growth rates of the entire Celtic Tiger era were occurred under the FG/Lab governemnt with its much higher tax rates on both business and workers.

The massive cuts in expenditure that you advocate isnt a zero sum game either. And while I agree that certain tax increases can be counter producitve, obviously, so is deflating the economy by launching slash and burn spending policies.
Its also totally unfair.

We are going to have to get a lot more imaginative about this very quickly.

Driving the country into the ground by running massive current account deficits is fair to absolutely no one. What we are experiencing is the collapse of the welfare state model that will play out over the next decade or so. The wealth transfers from the productive economy will continue to increase and as they do, savings and investment will decrease as people seek to preserve their wealth and or loose it. The state will become more vicious as those that benefit from this transfer will fight harder to maintain their share of a shrinking tax take at the expense of others.

Deflation is a shrinking of the money supply, and that’s exactly what those increased interest payments on debt do. Government has a choice, balance the budget and liquidate the banks or, continue on the current path and loose everything, but, since their time horizon is the next election, the course is already set, default it is.

I understand your argument. Where we disagree is exactly how attacking the fundamental problem-the deficit- is best achieved. I just cant see how the short sharp shock that people are advocating in terms of cuts will do anything other than kill the patient ( pardon the mixed metaphors) We will have to stagger them and combine them, somehow, with reforms to the tax code which can play their part in getting extra revenue in.

Obviously, the fact that the zombie banks are now our problem too is the cherry on top. Perhaps even the factor that will lead us to default no matter what governmnet seks to do about fiscal strategy.

While I agree with paying water rates because we are getting a service. Water is a precious resource that requires treatment for us to use it BUT I am against paying property tax on the basis that I am not getting any services for doing so.

We are being asked to pay property tax on something we provide for oursleves and spend most of our lives paying for “our home”. If we do not buy a house one is provided for us by the council or we pay rent to another private individual.

If we pay property tax to local councils to fill their funding gap they will not use it efficiently as we have seen from the boom all the increases in tax take on levies etc… went to pay themselves more, nicer offices, reduced work hours, more holidays, higher expenses etc…

No I am not paying for that!

Reform local government and tell me what I am paying for and then maybe a “Services Tax” can be introduced that everyone pays for not just the people who actually provide themselves with accomodation.

Rick,

Looking at the way FF increased spending during the boom years, the burden of correcting the deficit should mostly be on spending. That said, taxes will also need to rise (there’s a much larger national debt to service :cry: ).

The OECD has some useful stats on personal taxes. oecd.org/document/40/0,3343,en_2649_34533_45143016_1_1_1_37427,00.html

https://www.oecd.org/vgn/images/portal/cit_731/25/45/45145848Ireland.gif

This chart indicates that lower income and married couples are the most undertaxed. This has more to do with tax allowances than tax rates. Will we hit these segments?

Even allowing for widening the tax net and raising taxes, it won’t be enough. The benefit of cutting spending is that it improves competitiveness.