Everyone for themselves!


#21

Yes. And what is most cringe-worthy in all of this, is that all along, Europe continues to pay for us - to ensure the country has enough money to keep going.

All along, since even before 1973, Europe has been a substantial net beneficiary to this country. Previously, this money helped build up our infrastructure and economic capabilities. But now, it is the very life-blood that is staving off total collapse. *

Yet, Irish people turn around and say, ‘it’s all THEIR fault, we have these problems’?! They sneer at an ‘adult’ like Schauble when he stands up and quietly reminds people of some adult realities?

It’s not just a matter of ‘biting the hand that feeds us’. It’s a deeply embarrassing and shameful way for seeming adults to behave. Even in children, I’d personally expect a lot more. It is no way to carry on.

  • EDIT - Sure, you have the ideologically driven economic illiterates who cry, “stop all of this money, pull it out of the economy, we don’t need it…” but they just don’t understand the real-life repercussions of that action. Nor do they want to understand it. They do not think to look to other similar economic dynamics such as Russia in the 90’s. And similar. Or heed the peer-reviewed economists over and above the blogging christian fundamentalist economists and predatory hedge fund managers. Obviously the ‘preacher’ type economics is designed to appeal to something other than science. Those prey to these ‘preachers’ have no appreciation of the habits of mind - methods, or techniques - and the command of facts unearthed by these techniques and mental habits that go beyond the mental habits and factual knowledge of everyday life. Too much effort for them. Everything must be made ‘simple’. They even will say, 'economics is not a ‘science’ in an attempt to justify their extremely dated deficient analyses. But 95% of internet forum discussion space these days seems to be filled with this kind of twonk fodder, driven at root by self-interest of course… and unsurprisingly…)

#22

Agree largely with last few comments. Also a bit challenged by them, which is good.

I’ve always been very cautious with money: no debt, no speculation, etc., and so find it galling now to be held to account for the profligacy of my prodigal brothers.

But at the same time, I’ve never been politically active or worked to control the environment. So although I shouldn’t (morally… and I mean my morals before anyone lambasts me for recourse to abstracts) have to pick up the tab, the fact is that there are agents who will try to stick that to me, and I’ve not fought back so what right have I to complain.

I see two valid responses. Decide to go along with it and take the pain (i.e. do nothing); or decide to actively control the situation (itself a big project with options from emigration to politcal activism).

It all reminds me of the “True Knowledge” in Ken MacLeod’s fall-revolution cycle of novels.


#23

This was a large part of the stroke in tying the state to the banks in September 2008. How could they allow a bank to fail then, if it would drag down an EU state, using Euro, with it down the plug-hole? Big difference then to allowing a bank to fail on its own…


#24

I agree with all of these posts.

…but, who was responsible for regulating the flow of money to “Irish” banks which was then loaned into a property bubble? These people/institutions have been protected from any losses by funds loaned to Ireland by the Toika (and the NPRF, don’t forget the NPRF), no?

Are some of these instituions German? Was their behaviour not every bit as wreckless as that of the institutions we were failing to regulate? Did they not benifit from the bubble? Who was regulating them? Why were they not “Bailed out” by the states within which they were regulated?

Irish people fucked up on an epic scale. But they could not have done so (to the extent that they did) without the assistance of institutions who were behaving imprudently. These institutions have not suffered in any way for this imprudent behaviour.

The German Finance Minister understands this much better than I do.


#25

But this is in reference to Wolfgang Schauble’s statement that:

Giving faintly dim former rugby players money to lend into an obvious property bubble isn’t and shouldn’t be risk free. [in theory]Before doing so you should appraise the risks involved. If you assess these risks as too high, you should invest your money elsewhere. Doing so would have increased the cost of funding to Irish banks and resulted in a slowing of the bubble. [/in theory] Doing otherwise is wreckless. This wreckless behaviour took place on his doorstep.

I am not trying to absolve the Irish electorate of responsibility, I’m merely pointing out that this guy is simplifying what happened to the point of lying.


#26

Anyway, is it everyone for themselves? Internationally? On a European level?

It’s beginning to look like that, isn’t it?

Is there the political appetite for full fiscal Union, which would have to include some sort of “Burden sharing”? I don’t think so.

A lot will depend on the German elections in September, which will of course be affected by events in the interim.

But even if the next German government is elected on some sort of moderate platform, we’re still left with a UK Prime Minister who has called for an end to ever closer union, an Italian electorate who have stumped for a guy who said last week that the spread between Italian and German Bonds was invented two years ago and doesn’t matter, a French Minister for Industry who last week called for monetisation of debt and, well, Spain.

These are big countries, with indigenous industry and armies. What their leaders say matters. And I don’t think their leaders are going off on ideological solo runs. I think they are chasing their electorate who are more “Anti Europe” than they are. Maybe they’re just anti-paying-for-their-lifestyles, but for now that seems to mean anti-Europe.

And where does that leave us? Where does that leave the continent?

What’s the best possible outcome out of all of this?


#27

I’ll ignore all the cultural cringe and ‘we deserved it’ nonsense and bring it back to Schauble

This is clearly wrong.

He just baldly states it because its helpful to his “Kollectivschuld” narrative.

What a wanker.


#28

So people make ask themselves what was the point of this entire Euro experiment and now have much to cite in questioning the “wisdom” of an untouchable bureaucracy.


#29

I don’t understand what’s baffling about it. He means those people aware of and responsible for supervising the banks - those in Irish society whose job it is.

He’s right of course. How could they not be aware. In fact, they all went around patting their own backs about it.


#30

Here is a thought, Ireland follows the steps of Japan and arrears cause a second hole in the banks balance sheets after the guarantee is finished this month…I believe there is zero appetite for a second bailout after all these cuts. People might actually march in outrage.


#31

I was with you right up til:


#32

Nah man, believe me after having had long enough away now for the rage to subside a little, I’m still left with the distinct impression that I totally wasted about a decade of my life banging my head off the cultural mores of Ireland. The place will never change, and even if all dissenters who have emigrated over the decades had stayed, we’d still only ever be 5 or 10% of the electorate.

It would have been pointless for you to have stayed, you would only ever have had to endure the sneering from the gobtard herd for your “crazy doomer talk”, had to endure watching friends and family wilfully commit financial suicide despite all your warnings, had to endure listening to torrents of deluded drivel from every media outlet and in every single conversation, and would not have been able to change a damn thing.

It was all inevitable and would always have happened the way it did, and the presence of a few thousand additional dissenters would have made no difference at all, because the values and mores of the dissenters are simply too foreign and alien to the dominant sly grubby chancer peasant culture that has developed in the south over decades of FF’s cancerous influence.


#33

Well said.


#34

Your in NZ? Are they not going through an insane property price buble now, the most overvalued prices relative to income in the world. Is the attidude there now the same as Ireland 5 years ago, are we really that different.


#35

I suppose it is natural for a large proportion of people to act in naked self interest but it is up to the state to limit their ability to harm wider society. When I read stuff like this I start to spend a lot more time reading foreign job advertisements.

askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=177048


#36

Boom and bust are a natural feature of capitalism. Nothing special about this one. We would win the Olympics in hand wringing and naval gazing though. There also seems to be a cultural flaw were people seem recitient to challenge the orthodoxy of the day. So what if your the only descending view. Try telling a new zealander or a Londoner that house prices will come crashing down.


#37

Exactly. The herd are going to keep doing these things, in every country. Some countries are currently on their third or fourth property bubble since WWII FFS. From now on whenever I see a bubble forming in any industry or sector I’m going to quietly skim a slice for myself in the early stages. A modest profit before it goes too insane. And just smile and nod and play dumb. Look after yourself and keep yourself financially detached from reliance on any one investment class, bank, or country.

The herd are going to keep doing what they always do, and there’s no percentage in trying to educate and warn idiots - they simply wouldn’t do the same for you!


#38

Sorry, naval gazing is completely the wrong word. Hand wringing seems apt though.


#39

I can understand the disillusionment and the cynicism but things change extremely slowly and if those who are more aware/conscientised give up on those who are not (“the herd” as they have been called here) then it just slows the process of change down even further. Using a bit of a cliche here to make a point: just as one bad apple can rot a barrell of apples, one good apple can influence all the others!!! Sorry, not a great analogy but couldn’t think of a better one!

I feel disillusioned and cynical at times too, but I don’t want to give up on believing that change is possible. In my experience, many people listen eventually. Sometimes people have to suffer a lot before they “wake up”, there are many twists and turns and self-interest is a strong force that can pull us back from realising that what is good for us all will ultimately benefit each of us as individuals.


#40

Yes, you get to a certain age and you lose faith. I do maintain faith in the young. But I think they need to totally break away on their own. Nice story that illustrates what is needed below: