General Election, Ireland 2020 - Free Unicorns, Racism, Brick, Ugly, Housing, Tiocfaidh ár lá, Hearts & Minds, Transfers, Asylum, Hot Waters, Open Borders, Polls... Did someone say IMMIGRATION? :icon_eek:


#405

Well I accept the Constitution, amendments and all.

I guess we’re done here then. We’re all about opinions in the end here.


#406

We’re all about opinions in the end here.

In your opinion.


#407

Well, if I see an actual argument, I’ll be the first to acknowledge it.

If I want to challenge what I read here, so I can understand whats driving it, I don’t see why I can’t.


#408

I don’t see why I can’t.

But you just said you haven’t seen any arguments here. So, by your measure you were challenging other peoples opinions.

How dare they have their opinions? right

so I can understand whats driving it

Paging Dr. Freud, we got an unlicensed psychoanalyst on the loose.


#409

Quote

"Ó Cuív against coalition with Fine Gael and Greens*

Meanwhile, Fianna Fáil TD for Galway West, Éamon Ó Cuív, has said Fianna Fáil “will be divided from top to bottom” if members are asked to make a decision on a Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Green party coalition.

Speaking on RTÉ’s Drivetime Mr Ó Cuív said Micheál Martin “made it clear in yesterday’s meeting that he is determined to go into government.”

He said the only way that can happen is with a Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Green party coalition.

Mr Ó Cuív said this option will go against the choices made by the majority of the electorate who voted for change, because he said, “that’s not change.”

He said if the party rejects that coalition option then the Dáil would have to embark on “round table talks to resolve the issue in a responsible way.”

Mr Ó Cuív also predicted that the process to form a government would not take as long as in 2016."
End Quote


#410

I’m not stopping people from posting their opinions. Nor am I in any position to make people back up their assertions. But I’m free to ask…I think?


#411

Yes, please do. Now let’s get back to expressing our hypothesis’s, our opinions, our projections and our theories about the election and possible upcoming election. And where there are facts to be questioned, let us question those.


#412

Ó’Broin battering on the gates with this particular point.


#413

It just occurred to me that the cheerleaders of the property business always say that ‘rent is dead money’ perhaps O Broin could turn this back on them :grinning:


#414

IMHO, they have to keep Sinn Fein out.


#415

You’re asking me the single point where the turn towards childish individualism occurred?

I’d have to go with the garden of Eden.

Most Irish people will have grown ever more relativist, individualist, hedonist and modernist over the years since 1937. Hint - how close to Satan you’ve travelled will be shown by your reaction to reading the preamble.

Now it’s possible to broadly agree with the intention of the preamble while not fully believing in God and Satan. But you’d need to be a very wise Aristolean or like Camus is expressing here type of wisdom:

Nobility obliges one to honour, but being a man obliges one to nobility…Vigny saw very well that honour was the only possible morality for the man without God. For mans reasons cannot stand by themselves, it is man who stands by himself in their place.


#416

For any history buffs out there - the day after Cork was burned by the Auxiliaries the Examiner’s front page headline was about…the Mallow Horse Fair

Old habits die hard


#417

Well, I broadly agree with the preamble while not believing in (any) God.

…observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations…

I think our profound disagreements come down to whether or not the Irish Constitution is or should be a “living constitution”.


#418

If “living” means changing according to a new set of unclear intentions which just cannot be and are not in accordance with the the intentions expressed in the existing preamble.

If "living’ meant coherent change - that would be logical.


#419

Aha!


#420

FG have the whip hand here. They don’t need to be in Government, their base is secure for the next decade. FF need to get into Government, deliver some of what SF delivered so that they can grow their support before it dies off or switches to FG.

The only thing is FG have no interest in building public housing or fixing the public health system, they’re actually against it ideologically, so they may collapse the FF/FG coalition before it gets going. They’ll insist that FF take the shite ministries like Health and Housing. FG will insist on Finance because of 2011 but will use it to choke off FFs Socialist notions.

I think FF are in real trouble here, they seem to have lost their political nous. FF/SF would be better for them in the long term but Martin is not clever enough for that and his hatred of SF is too strong to use them as a foil to get FG to concede a few points.


#421

Housing was not a hard ministry since FG took over in 2011. Says all anyone needs to know. Health going to anyone Leo or Micheal thinks is a rival for party leader. i.e pascal or jimmiriam.


#422

The Ireland of 1937, as evidenced by the preamble, was a place that chose to put upfront notions like “a people”, “obligations”, “humility”, “centuries of trial”, “unremitting struggle”, “nationhood”, “prudence”, “true social order”. These are all higher order notions that wouldnt figure in a preamble written now because the country now is an individualistic, materialistic place that has completely changed the balance in the direction of the “freedom of the individual” - which was mentioned in the preamble, but not as the sole concern.

They wouldn’t be figure, because they’re complete nonsense and were pretty weird at the time.

Now it’s possible to broadly agree with the intention of the preamble while not fully believing in God and Satan. But you’d need to be a very wise Aristolean or like Camus is expressing here type of wisdom:

Nobility obliges one to honour, but being a man obliges one to nobility…Vigny saw very well that honour was the only possible morality for the man without God. For mans reasons cannot stand by themselves, it is man who stands by himself in their place.

I don’t agree with the intention of the preamble, because it’s arbitrary garbage.
Being a man obliges nobody to anything. Being a man is just a genetic accident. :roll_eyes:


#423

Well I think Camus is referring to man as in human.

Something tells me that in 1937 your own beliefs would have been considered “weirder” than our constitution writers’. And I’m sure you’d be fine with that.

Your views are a little weird even now. But in 10 years probably not at all. This is what John McGuirk and the gript.ie writers need to come to terms with is there is no “moral majority”. Society wide morality is completely burned down in Ireland - it’s a ‘whatever you’re having yourself’, ‘paddle your own canoe’ sort of place.


#424

…in your opinion.

If you want to make an argument you’ll have to bring some facts and some explanations.