General Election, Ireland 2020 - Free Unicorns, Racism, Brick, Ugly, Housing, Tiocfaidh ár lá, Hearts & Minds, Transfers, Asylum, Hot Waters, Open Borders, Polls... Did someone say IMMIGRATION? :icon_eek:


Very much agreed on the above.

However, where Im guessing we might differ (correct me if Im wrong) is around the notion that attracting more and more such companies into Ireland is automatically and entirely positive.

We’re back to the age old question of whether we are a society or an economy, and/or indeed which serves or which should serve which.

Yes we want prosperity and yes these entities bring a level of that, but is there a point at which their growth and influence should be limited?

We all certainly thought so when it was the builders or the publicans. Why not also the multi nationals?


You jump around between skin colour and nationality. But of course “white” isn’t an ethicity, it’s just a Marxist construct to destabilise societies and create guilt - I’m damned if I know what I’ve got to do with “Whites in South Africa” or “Whites in the Deep South”.

If “white” was a nationality the plantations of Ireland would have been seamless.


No, I would be in agreement.

I would wager that almost every type of nationality in Ireland has been employed by the multinationals, past and present. In the past the gov was probably too lazy to institute a points-driven immigration policy, and now it might be too politically obvious if they tried to do so, as it would be seen as a continued stacking of the deck, to ensure our multinationals are too big to fail, for Ireland.

But each multinational employee, Irish or otherwise, represents a wage bill that is essentially foreign earnings, collected through income tax or spent directly into the economy. And the corp tax is a earner as well. It can be argued this base helped us through the 2010-2013 time. So this plays into the society theme.

But these earnings help drive an internal dynamic that makes Ireland expensive, and economically unbalanced.

We are really chasing our tail here.

I do think a points based system is the answer on the immigration question, but there may be a element of the gov not wanted to rock the boat now - the EU are making heavy play of a “level paying field” with the UK, and our corp tax rate has gotta be played up by the UK in response, among other things.

We also need to invest more in our education system, especially universities which continue to drop down the rankings.


Part of his Oranmore heartland has moved constituency to Galway East. That would account for some of his dip, if not most of it.
Though I think his comments make him less transfer friendly.


If you walk the streets of Dublin there can be no doubt from your eyes and your ears that migrants are a substantially higher percentage of the population compared to the early years of the 2010s. You also have villages in places like Roscommon/Longford with huge migrant populations for their size. This wasn’t the case 10 years ago, with the exception of a few places with big meat factories like Gort where South Americans have been working for 20 years or more.

Fine Gael in 2016 promised to bring back 70,000 Irish over the term of the Dail. They failed spectacularly, and really how much effort did they make to encourage these people back.
The famous shot of the nurses standing outside Sydney opera house asking for a reason to come back home is the best known symbol of this utter failure of FG to deliver on their promises.
Give us a reason to come home



That format is Googles own creation and should be no surprise in it’s extra-lite format, considering the civilisational collapse of the average attention span.

There is a lot Google and other tech titans engage in that gets a free pass in terms of it’s influence over nation states affairs and Ireland is no exception.

One obvious question here is - Have Google offered to do one of these for every running candidate or at least their party leaders for the craic like?


Undercover pinster?


Kudos to that letter writer. I note how careful he was around language and how he danced around the central focus of his topic as much as he could as otherwise, it wouldn’t have seen the light of day in the Letter’s page


Maybe we can take the letter as it is.

So, as an example, tt was noted that 8% of those who rented in Dublin’s Docklands last year were Irish, and average salary of a tenant in the Docklands is €127,618, with 55% of renters working the technology sector with locally-based firms including Google, Facebook and Twitter.

I had a look at the Revenue income tax statistics for 2017. I chose those in the range 90K to 150K, and they account for 138K people, 4.2 billion in tax and 22.5% in total income tax and USC deducted.

It points to non-Irish and Irish workers in the multinationals as a cash cow, both in tax and money spent into the economy. As the multinationals cash flow has a global aspect, and not going to be nearly as affected by a national downturn, it provides a relatively solid tax base. Also, this money represents foreign earnings into Ireland.

The letter also suggests its good for the building industry - not entirely a positive thing in itself. But points to the fact that everyone gets to have a slice of the pie.

Any change in immigration policy is going to going to have an impact on earnings, revenue and economic policy. We’d have to decide what we want that to be.

Indeed, its happening now (article from July 2019)…

Ireland’s love affair with multinational investment has deepened in recent years. As major investment from long-standing players like Intel and the pharma giants continues, the new breed of tech firms have created a powerful second wave. Walk around Dublin’s digital docks and count the numbers – Facebook is building up to 5,000 employees this year , Google – here since 2002 – has 8,000-plus and companies like LinkedIn, Indeed and Salesforce are expanding fast. Ireland’s problem is no longer attracting the jobs, but finding a place for all the employees to live.

Yet change is on the way. Major adjustments in global tax rules now look odds-on to take place. The days of Ireland using its corporate tax regime as a key attraction for foreign direct investment may be numbered. Corporate tax revenues will come under threat. For an economy where one in seven work directly for multinationals and where the top ten firms pay some €4 billion in tax each year – equivalent to one quarter of the health budget – this is no small issue.


He has a point but you could also view it as an example of Nimbyism, the central plank of the argument is against housing in the clane area, the problem - immigrants. Does he want 400 houses and to ban immigrants?


I wonder would Leo find the time to compose a response to John Water’s opening call to “take our country back”?

John Waters: Only radical change can save Ireland now

Back in the early 1950s, before I was born, a book called The Vanishing Irish was published in the United States. It contained 18 essays by 15 contributors, all describing the demographic catastrophe then believed to be threatening the very survival of the Irish people, the main factors being late marriages and emigration. Among the contributors were the writer Seán Ó Faolain and the great essayist John D. Sheridan. In a contribution entitled We’re Not Dead Yet , the latter wrote of the “racial despair” then afflicting Ireland, a despair he traced back to the “Great Famines” of the 1840s, which he believed had instilled in the Irish a belief that “the race could not survive”.

“Despair of this kind is deeper and more lasting than any personal despair,” he wrote, and had “left a stain of pessimism on the Irish character.” Even a century later, we had not recovered from the shock of near obliteration. “The memory of it is still somewhere in the whorls of our minds. Without being conscious of it many Irish people are afraid to marry and have children without an assurance of material prosperity which more buoyant peoples do not require.”

Yet, records indicate that Ireland’s fertility at that time was 3.4 — twice what it is now, when we appear not even to consider the possibility that we may be facing a crisis of demographics or survival. Ireland’s fertility rate of 1.7 last year follows a decade of continuous decline, from a recent high of 2.06 in 2009.

The current figure has yet to reflect the full effects of the introduction of abortion in 2018, which (at a rate of approximately 10,000 per annum thus far) will almost certainly take us to the demographically significant figure of 1.6, beyond which populations are prone to falling off a cliff within a couple of generations.

In The Vanishing Irish , the writer Seán O’Casey was quoted in his fear that Ireland in 1953 was “withering”: “We’ve spread ourselves over the wide world, and left our own sweet land thin.” The warnings were heeded, and within two decades the fertility rate had climbed to nearly 4.

Still, traces of the conditions that O’Casey, Sheridan and the others adverted to may still be with us, albeit manifesting in different ways. The zeal for abortion must surely be regarded as one such manifestation, but also the silence that has met the inundation of Ireland over the past two decades with what are insultingly termed “the new Irish” — alleged refugees, asylum seekers and others who have come here as part of a wave of displacement now occurring on a global basis. Without consultation with the people, the political class, under instructions from elsewhere, threw open the gates. The media refused to lead any kind of discussion on the topic, but instead ensured that anyone daring to speak about it was immediately drowned out by a wave of vitriol.

The English writer Douglas Murray, in his 2018 book The Strange Death of Europe — in a remarkable echo of the rumination of John D. Sheridan —writes of his belief that “Europe is committing suicide.”

“Or at least,” he continues, “its leaders have decided to commit suicide. Whether the European people choose to go along with this is, naturally, another matter … I mean that the civilisation we know as Europe is in the process of committing suicide and that neither Britain nor any other Western European country can avoid that fate because we all appear to suffer from the same symptoms and maladies. As a result, by the end of the lifespans of most people currently alive Europe will not be Europe and the peoples of Europe will have lost the only place in the world we had to call home.”

This is the core of it: the loss of our home . Whereas the vast majority of those who come here will continue to have another place — their home country — to go back to should they wish, we, the native Irish, will have nowhere to go in the event that our country becomes unliveable in. The symptoms that in the 1950s were, in comparative terms, somewhat mysteriously attributed to a country with a fertility rate of 3.4, are now afflicting the entire continent.

Murray goes on: “Europe today has little desire to reproduce itself, fight for itself or even take its own side in an argument. Those in power seem persuaded that it would not matter if the people and culture of Europe were lost to the world. Some have clearly decided (as Bertolt Brecht wrote in his 1953 poem ‘The Solution’) to dissolve the people and elect another …”

Murray identifies two main causes for Europe’s drastic situation. One is mass migration into Europe, which he says turned Europe from “a home for the European peoples” to “a home for the entire world.” The lack of integration and assimilation turned innumerable places in Europe into places that were not European in the least. Whereas those we somewhat laughably call “our” leaders insist that we treat the newcomers — the “new Irish” with forbearance, respecting their different cultures, rights and demands — we, the host culture, must stand down our beliefs, culture, traditions and allegiances. Crucifixes must be removed from public spaces; prayers must be replaced with mindfulness sessions.

Meanwhile, back “home” in Ireland, there has been zero integration, and zero attempts at integration. We have imported, in effect, a motley collection of ethnicities, which have been led to believe that they can continue in our country as if they had never left their own. They are being taught — by Irish NGO operatives — to regard themselves as Irish and to reject as “racist” even a simple question as to where they come from. As Murray points out, no European can go to China and begin calling himself Chinese: only Europe extends this as an unquestionable entitlement.

Murray sombrely describes this complicity by Europeans in the destruction of their own beliefs, traditions and legitimacy. We Europeans have forgotten that everything we love — “even the greatest and most cultured civilisations in history, can be swept away by people who are unworthy of them.” He has in mind those among us who insist that European culture must roll over to give space to the incoming cultures. The myth of progress is used, he says, to blinker the people of Europe to the calamity unfolding in their midst. Europe is weighed down with guilt about its past, which paralyses us even when we are not guilty. And there is also, he says, a problem in Europe of “existential tiredness and a feeling that perhaps for Europe the story has run out and a new story must be allowed to begin.” In other words, “racial despair”.

We have destroyed a culture of string beliefs in transcendent ideas and ideals, an ancient tradition based on philosophy, ethics and the rule of law, with a shallow anti-culture based on spurious strains of “respect”, “tolerance” and “diversity” — trite concepts with no effective meaning in this context other than a denial of the right of members of the host cultures to speak their minds in the face of their potential obliteration.

The loss of unifying stories, says Murray, “about our past and ideas about what to do with our present or future” would be a serious conundrum at any time. During a time of momentous societal change and upheaval, such a loss is likely to prove fatal. “The world is coming into Europe at a time when Europe has lost sight of what it is. And while the movement of millions of people from other cultures into a strong and assertive culture might have worked, the movement of millions of people into a guilty, jaded and dying culture cannot.”

We stand, then, to lose our home, the home of our children, the Irish generations as yet unborn. Already weakened by a history of occupation, genocide and forcible cultural reconstruction, we have lacked the clarity and courage to defend our sweet land, its ways, laws and culture. We are allowing ourselves to be bullied into self-destruction by people who clearly have no love for Ireland or its people, who do not care if we survive or not, or about who lives in Ireland or calls it home — provided they can ensure their own immediate futures and the success of their ideological projects. Seventy years ago, the Irish were afraid to marry; now they are afraid to open their beaks. Irishness is already the hole in the doughnut in Ireland, as self-assertive “new Irish” move in to take the prizes promised them by people without a mandate to do so, the same bully-boys and bully-girls who seek to drown out or intimidate into silence those who dare to stand and ask a question about what is happening.

It is time to shout Stop! It is time to take our country back.


Reading that article a verse from the bible comes to mind;

“For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his own soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?”

Of course if we have abolished the soul as a concept, such a rhetorical question becomes somewhat moot.

Edit - this was meant as a reply to Aegis’ post above


So what does the Pin make of “the most extensive public housing initiative in the history of the State” as promised by Sinn Fein? Not sure it compares with the slum and tenement clearances of the past but its certainly radical…page 63-70 of the above document …apologies for the format…best i can do with my device


'Sinn Féin’s public housing programme would: »

Deliver on average 20,000 public homes each year to meet social and affordable need by investing an additional €6.5 billion »

Prioritise the use of public land for the delivery of public housing by Local Authorities »

Increase the Part V obligation on private developments to 25% »

Staff Local Authorities to aggressively bring vacant private homes into use » Ensure that a minimum of 7% of all public houses are designed for people with disabilities and are fully wheelchair accessible »

Restore funding for Traveller specific accommodation to its 2008 levels »

End the use of PPPs, Joint Ventures and Land Initiatives in the delivery of public housing »

Double funding for and improve access to housing adaptation grants for people with disabilities at a cost of €57 million »
Increase the funding and targets for the retrofitting of public housing by providing an additional €12 million


A three-year refundable tax credit for all existing and new tenancies that would put a month’s rent back in every renter’s pocket costing €301 million »

A three-year freeze on rents for all existing and new tenancies »

A major investment in affordable cost rental accommodation delivered by Local Authorities and Approved Housing Bodies »

A year on year reduction in the number of private rental tenancies used for social housing tenants via HAS, RAS and HAP freeing up additional rental stock for private renters

Residential Tenancies (Amendment) Bill would: »

Create tenancies of indefinite duration » Link rent reviews after the three-year rent freeze to the Consumer Price Index »

Remove all Residential Tenancies Act Section 34 grounds for new and renewed tenancies »

Introduce an NCT style certification to ensure compliance with building and fire safety standards »

Ensure 25% of all private rental properties are inspected by Local Authorities every year »

Place a legal obligation on estate agents and letting platforms to ensure that all long- and short-term rental properties are compliant with minimum standards and planning requirements

» Set a date, within the lifetime of the Government, to end long term homelessness and the need to sleep rough »
Double the provision of Housing First housing allocations »

Limit the length of time any person can stay in emergency accommodation to a maximum of six months »

Phase out use of dormitory style emergency accommodation for homeless people within the lifetime of the Government »

Place a legal obligation on Local Authorities to put in place homeless prevention plans for those at imminent risk of homelessness »

End the use of vacant possession notices to quit to prevent families being evicted into homelessness »

Fully implement the 2019 Joint Oireachtas Housing, Planning and Local Government Committee report on family homelessness »

Increase funding for domestic violence refuge provision by €12 million to meet need within the lifetime of the Government

» Deliver a stream of affordable purchase homes through Local Authorities »
Amend Home Building Finance Ireland to focus on delivering homes at prices below €250,000 »

Review the Local Authority home local scheme to make the criteria and decision making more transparent and extend the scheme to certain categories of second time buyer »

Prioritise the placing of the Construction Industry Register on a statutory footing »

Abolish the Local Property Tax and reduce mortgage interest rates

Repeal the Planning and Development (Amendment) Act 2015 allowing Ministers to introduce mandatory planning guidelines »

Repeal the mandatory ministerial guidelines on apartment design and building heights introduced in 2018 »

Repeal the Strategic Housing Development legislation and return all planning decisions to local authorities »

Reform the planning process to impose strict statutory timelines on the pre planning process, requests for additional information and An Bord Pleanála appeals »

Amend the legislation underpinning the Office of the Planning Regulator to make the office fully independent as recommended by Mahon Tribunal » Initiate a time limited review of the National Planning Framework and allow the Oireachtas to vote on the amended plan »

Transform the Land Development Agency into an Active Land Management Agency with responsibility for strategically managing all public land while returning all residential development functions to Local Authorities

Develop universal design and lifetime adaptability guidelines and regulations so that all new buildings meet the needs of people with disabilities »

Initiate a time limited review of land use and land value issues with a view to introducing measures to constrain land hoarding, land speculation and land price inflation »

Strengthen the nZEB regulations and introduce a clear mechanism to ensure compliance »

Fully implement the 2017 Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government report Safe as Housing including the creation of a Building Control Agency, a reformed BCAR process and a latent defects redress scheme for owners of Celtic Tiger properties with latent defects »

Immediately introduce mandatory fire safety inspections by Local Authorities of all new build multi-unit residential developments

End quote


Yeah this came to mind as well. Because he’s making a direct link between levels of immigration and housing build activity.

Shure with no forreners who’d ever want to build in Kildare, eh?


Plenty on offer but any measures to are likely to increase the costs of housing. Their should be a better mix of developments to limit ghettoization.

this is pie in the sky. How can you reduce mortgage rates

Can they do any worse than FG?
Probably not


Decision time, my friend.

The root cause of our housing crisis is not immigration.

The root cause is our economic policy. How do we want to earn money? How do we want the irish state to fund itself?



However, current migration levels are definitely a symptom of whats wrong with the current model …that is if you are of the view that there is something actually wrong.

The devotees of proto-liberalism would clearly disagree with such an assumption and would no doubt be of the view that things are motoring along quite nicely.

Personally, Ive no problem with migration per se. However, I do have a problem with levels of migration that exacerbate not just supply side problems in the provision of housing and public services, but also (in some cases) quite clearly cause the type of societal unrest that has manifested in some of our neighbouring countries. We’re not quite there yet and I dont see why we wouldnt seek to avoid replication of same.

But obviously, you’ make a fair point. If, for example, the plug was pulled on the multi-national conveyor belt model, what would replace it? Previous deflationary periods havent exactly ushered in the type of reset required for anything genuinely new or innovative to take hold.

Or does it really have to be either or? All or nothing? Seems to me we’re in goose that laid the golden egg territory. Why not spare the goose and live off the (moderate) interest?


I know that both of us are looking at the corporate driving force here.

Where we might differ, maybe, is how how immigration is changing Ireland, or not.

I’ll be frank, culture and conformity generally trumps everything else, and those immigrants with a closer outlook to our own just make the distance naturally. But we focus on the margins of those that don’t integrate. But we have plenty of Irish people that don’t “integrate”. And the courts are full of them.

I got a lot of stick in another thread for suggesting that most numbers of immigrants would “become more Irish than the Irish themselves”. I chose that for a reason, when we essentially absorbed what was an incoming foreign culture. People forget about the the natural tendency of people to conform, and to the natural hospitality of the the Irish culture itself. There’s a focus on immigrant kids causing a fight on Henry St, but no-one talks about the Indians doctor’s young daughters playing GAA in Roscommon. We should give ourselves some credit.

But its a numbers game. And, economically, a dangerous one. We are continuing to bet on this carousel.
And, to be frank, we are making promises to immigrants that we can’t keep. That’s not their fault.

So to answer your question, I just don’t know. The US can create a Silicon Valley; all we do is import that model, at reduced rates, and live off the scraps of tremendous cash flowing through our little tax haven. It was a great idea at the time. And then we just got fat on it.

I can’t see a way out; go to a points based system and EU - stop - all countries will call us out as a certified tax haven. Google, Facebook et al, do not need to be as big in Ireland as they are. Since the workforce is largely foreign, the job can be done elsewhere. No-one gives a shit that no where else is as close to Boston, as we like to broadcast.

I think we need to goback to the infamous broadcast to perhaps realise that “we are living beyond our means”, still.


So, you think being Irish is a cultural construct, that anyone can just adopt?

Like at Paddy’s day. Put on the plastic green hat. Hey presto! Top of the morning to you.