Official thread for discussion of NAMA proposals and Green Party responses.
Yes the members have the power to prevent the PP from supporting NAMA. Essentially the members pass and binding change to policy. TD’s Councillors etc have agreed to be bound by the party policies. When this policy change is specific it is very difficult to get away form it.
What happened in Athlone was monumental. Body of Evidence and others are wondering how the greens can be for NAMA and against paying over market prices for loans. This has to do with the preferendum process, which is essential a controlled debate which gathers the full spectrum of opinions within the party membership. Unlike what the IT and the independent are saying this morning, the members did not have options put infront of them. Rather the members suggested various aspects of the problem and focused on the core problem. After a few hours the list of items is narrowed down and hence what might look like a stupid result was achieved. NAMA with out paying over the odds is not NAMA, I know that. The vast majority of Greens in Athlone know that. But that’s not the point. The preferendum process throws up odd loking results, but they are reflctive and get to the truth all be it in around about way. If I have time later in the day I will explain thepreferendum process. It’s a great tool for getting over devisive situations.
Believe me you have seen the first true signs of the end of NAMA.
MOD Edit: Please stay on topic. Play the ball not the man and several other cliches.
Is this current market value as in some optimistic valuation model by an estate agent (Mulcahy?)?
If they were a little more informed, they would have voted against NAMA taking performing loans. The problem taking performing loans is that they may pay close to the full amount for these loans. There are two key problems with this - 1. You’re buying loans that might not really be performing or that will become non-performing in the near future. 2. The possible array of outcomes is hard to predict. If you pay face price for performing loans, these loans probably have LTVs much greater than 100% hence the problem.
I think its a huge step forward in the debate, personally. The choice seems to be boiling down to busting the banks and NAMA or the Swedish solution which, since access to NAMA is optional, is essentially the same thing. This is the hobson’s choice the swedes offerred their banks - sort it out yourselves or come and be temporarily nationalised into our bad bank.
The fact that so few want the current bad legislation with its bad solutions is great news. The government have gone all in on a pair of twos and the first card out in the flop is a black jack…
Going by Athlone convention, the Greens will not pay over marlet value. NAMA requires over payment, longterm economic value, therefore the greens will not accept NAMA. As I say this is BIG BIG BIG news. The press, FF, and the markets have not caught this yet.
I have high hopes the greens can make great changes to NAMA… And so far they are looking for more transparency…
All depends now on how far they can/want to push it. More transparency; e.g.
Publishing details on ‘long term’ prices paid… (If we are giving the bank money, they can waive their right to privacy)
Publishing details on all loan writedowns, writeoffs etc (If we are giving developers money, they can waive their right to privacy)
Publishing actual sales prices on property assets disposed by NAMA. (We are selling, we can publish)
Introduce rules and penalties to prevent those who have benefited from NAMA (writedowns etc) from participating in the property industry in future (buying NAMA assets)…
That is after all what Lenihan says he wants to do… stop NAMA defaulters reentering the industry (he promised this in the Dail) so he shouldn’t have a problem with that
This would go a long way towards sorting out NAMA, while still leaving it free to restore credit which is its mission (allegedly)…
In the Irish Times last week, there were a few letters on having a national house price register to provide transparency to the property market… I wrote a letter saying NAMA is a great opportunity to introduce this transparency to the commercial market by publishing transactions… shame they didn’t publish it… But I think the transparency angle is the best hope to stop NAMA being a developer bailout… And Im sure theres no love lost between the greens and the developers.
And the greens option is to add more transparency…
With all due respect that is a very lightweight interpretation of what happenned in Athlone. The greens indicated a very strong objection to paying over market prices for loans. This is a much more fundamental point than tweeking on transparency etc. I agree we need transparency etc…
It is a welcome move. But I think the whole Long term Economic value mightn’t be as significant as manipulating the current market valuation.
And is the current market value the bottom? Has Ireland experienced the fastest correction of a property bubble in history?
Good point Cave Canem. But if NAMA fails then the likelyhood is that the market will be left to be the market. In other words a failure to create NAMA will cause big changes, quite likely a fall in government, and from there nationalisation by FG/Labour. That should result in seeing a true market left function with out the distortions that NAMA would impose.
I hope you’re correct… I think the NAMA long term price is pure fraud, it is a made up concept to subsidize the banks and allow fraud to occur down the line…It allows NAMA to keep 2 sets of books. … If i went to pay myself or some suppliers a ‘long term’ price for something; the revenue would shut me down with a tax demand… I would in trouble as a company director…
I would love to see this long term price removed from the legislation…
On Wednesday Lenny is going to announce the discount… Do you think tactically the green ministers should wait till it is announced or fire a warning shot or 2 at this stage?
It’s all in play as we speak, The irish times let the cat out of the bag this morning.
irishtimes.com/newspaper/bre … king17.htm
"The most popular choice at 23 per cent was for an agency which would pay only the current market rate for loans transferred to the banks.
In second place at 20-21 per cent was the so-called “Swedish solution”, which would also mean paying only the market price for loans."
It also showed the Alice in Wonderland aspect to all this beautifully:
irishtimes.com/newspaper/opi … 73605.html
A secret is something you tell one other person:
Fucking idiots. It’s the banks and their regulation stupid, the fucking banks. Stop the banks and you stop the bubbles.
Im liking the fact that more greens support a “let the markets decide the fate of the banks” than NAMA
Im not liking the fact that more prefer NAMA to partial nationalisation
This is a chance for the green party to regain their lost support
WFT, “Green Nama” now. Fraud is OK if it’s “Green Fraud”?
We are deep in fucking George Orwell territory with this despicable Green parliamentary party.
I’ll reserve judgement on the rank & file.
Can we stop slagging the Greens… They are our best hope to stop this multi billion euro fraud… If they can force transparency and not overpaying, they will have done the country a great service.
Can someone outline the timeline… Reading the article, the greens have another conference on Oct 10’th… Can they tell their TD’s to vote against it?
If thats the case they are in an incredibly strong position for negotiating with FF. Remember FF and their cronies are on their knees
Lay down with Dogs, catch fleas !
I do not want to criticise ordinary Green party members here. However, when it comes to the vote I believe sufficient Green party members will capitulate or go with “light green” party leaders to accept the broad provisions of NAMA. The Greens may get minor concessions that will ultimately prove ineffective in the long run (e.g. Social Dividend from Nama), but will allow them in the short term to claim they had an impact. Classic Yes Minister stuff (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Minister).
IMHO the Greens are not our best hope. To solely rely on them is pure defeatism.
To sum up if you want to ensure there is a fair and equitable result for Irish taxpayer do not rely on Greens.