Many of those advocating property tax are advocating exactly that - a tax on provision of roads, local parks, street lighting, etc. This is best done with a site value tax, rather than on the value of the building on the land.
There advocations are sadly misplaced.
Taxing a persons home is stealing away their ability to live in their private place as is a natural human need.
Tax on provision of roads is already being done (and misplaced to the Health Services and elsewhere) through motor tax, fuel tax, insurance levies, VRT, etc. People already are paying for their roads. Paying again is a double taxation.
I want to be clear here. Really, the site of a home (its curtilage) and the building of the home (the house or flat) should not be taxed in my view. This is fair to all people across the nation. Its a human need and should not be taxed.
Local parks are a very good idea and do require service and maintenance to be kept in good condition. So charge the visitors to those parks or provide revenue generating services that help pay for the value of the benefit of having visitable parks. Again, this is a trick of government of extracting funds from everyone to pay for something perhaps regularly used by a small few (most often dwellers of urban areas.
Property tax is the certification of big government gone made in Ireland.
Ireland has generally had bad governance. Now, it’s been formally qualified.
Plenty of government employees on this site who know its part of the scam of further unreasonable salary increases as part of the next round of union led and mandated “benchmarking”.
Household debt to net disposable income is the most relevant metric. On that basis Ireland is ***fourth ***in the OECD on 2014 basis (after Denmark, Norway and Netherlands). On the basis of movements in numerator and denominator I would expect Ireland to be in fifth place after Austria by now. Data.
I didn’t read the rest of your post after I caught you making stuff up (not the first time btw…)
Fairly sure that the various car-related taxes don’t cover the cost of the roads, or at least not the capital expenditure on new motorways and so on.
Motoring is very heavily taxed in Ireland. Most people don’t notice it due to its indirect nature.
Even at the peak of road-building (2008-9) the combined take from fuel duties, VAT and VRT on new vehicles, as well as motor taxation exceeded expenditure on roads (new build and maintenance).
If you want to pay for parks when you use them (as is often done rurally) then I’ll disagree, but I can’t argue - it’s a perfectly reasonable perspective.
If you think half the money that goes into the public sector is wasted then I won’t disagree or argue!
Personally I would take the view that, certainly in an urban setting, much of the value of the land is provided by the public services surrounding that land. Given that tax has to come from somewhere, and given also that we (presumably) want to incentivise efficient land use, then it seems like a perfectly reasonable imposition of tax. I’d be okay with an exception being made for those more than 10 miles from the nearest public service, if you’re that keen on solitude!
(lthough I think those 10 miles away from service would still call on a Fire Service should the need arise)
Even a superficial analysis of housing values in parts of Dublin would surely highlight the enormous value provided for free by Dart and Luas
the sanctimony over taxing the family home ignores those who rent and who must therefore pay for their shelter from their weekly or monthly pay packet. Surely it is equally immoral to take money from someone who has earned it by his own labour? Someone who inherits/comes into a home and doesn’t need to work - should he be able to sit back until death and have all services provided to him by someone less fortunate who goes out to work?
Slasher, I hope that I have not been sanctimonious in my postings while I recognize that some persons who complain about taxation are. I believe in good taxation but property tax is just not that.
I want to address a few important points here.
Firstly I have rented for 21 years! That’s certainly long enough for most so I have perspective on this matter to some reasonable degree.
I believe that people have to pay for their accommodation.
They can pay through a number of different arrangements that are fair, e.g. through purchase (with our without mortgage) or by renting or other various ways.
If the dwelling is in rented use, then it is in fact, a home for those living within it and I do not then believe that that building and its curtilage should be subject to a property tax. The landlord would have to bear the cost of this tax and like so many other taxes would likely pass it onto the renters.
I believe that when a building and its site is in occupancy as a home residence, then whether the occupiers are owners or renters, neither should have to be paying a form of property tax on that home.
To address another thing that you have raised in your post, it seems that you provide an indication that many of those who own their homes may not have had to pay for them. That he who lives in a house he owns has not “earned it by his own labour”. This is a large strawman argument but one which is put in occasionally to try to make housing a “them versus us” type of divide.
Believe me that many people who have purchased their homes have paid for it by saving from their own labour, by many times having lived in rented accommodation for many years, by paying their other huge taxes (e.g. Stamp duty (another rubbish tax)), or, have taken out mortgages where in effect they ‘rent’ their houses through use of money from a bank.
To answer your question, I believe that people need to pay for the services that they use. But not have to pay for a general property tax which like the general consignment of taxation by the government will end up likely being generally wasted.
I don’t believe that taxing a person who has inherited a home is a fair way to pay for whatever “services” that they receive.
e.g. I don’t believe that people should have to pay for library services if they are not actually library users, etc.
well firstly apologies - sanctimonious is over the top; however I do feel you have been a little dramatic - or at least unusually exercised about one particular form of taxation.
I concede people who inherit fortunes are the exception (I use it to illustrate the larger issue of unearned income which attracts lower rate of tax that real work; ) - however I’m sure you know many people who live in homes you can only aspire to but who fiddle their taxes through legal or illegal means - in the US by contrast even Tony Soprano has to pay his property tax; perhaps the resentment you feel towards a property tax should be applied to the wasted income tax. Income Tax is cyclical and we are all too painfully aware of what happens when an economy is too dependent on cyclical income tax supported my a belief that property is a one way ticket to untaxed profit.
sorry but I cannot accept one form of taxation is more likely to be wasted than another - and even if it were so we should not accept this. Whether we like it or not the value of non-agricultural land derives from either infrastructure, or proximity to economic activity which depends on the aforementioned infrastructure.
If you believe that libraries, roads, playgrounds should not be funded from income tax that’s another argument - my primary issue is with those who abhor property/land taxes but feel that punitive income on those who work for a living is fair game (all the while screaming about “fairness” and “inequality” )
In any event this is an academic discussion. “Proper” land tax in Ireland will not come to pass and the status quo will remain.
Free? Don’t the users who avail of the service (as opposed to those who live nearby but don’t) pay for it?
I’m wondering what’s happened to the notion that our taxes already pay for things. I mean, I remember when my bins were collected for free and water was free (pending tax), parking was free, roads were free. It seems now that our taxes pay for everything left that hasn’t a new tax attached to it.
Isn’t this tax by stealth?
ah here; are you actually denying the massive unearned bump in property prices (tax free for PPRs) for those lucky enough to live along the Dart/Luas line?
Users they pay for the service - just like the people in Swords and Lucan who pay for Dublin Bus but don’t see a corresponding premium attached to the privilege for living along the 25/41 route (if you spend a few mornings seething in the useless, unenforced bus lanes you’d know why).
I’m open to correction on this but I don’t believe Transdev are paying economic rates for the State investment in the Luas?
I’m sure those in other parts of the country who pay income tax but don’t enjoy the lovely property price improving infrastructure wonder too!
First time I can remember (incl. 2009-2012), with no house +1m advertised for auction in Dublin in April?
Of course, we know why this is the case.
True demand is weak in the upper-end, and extremely weak above 2m.
Better to negotiate in the off-market (use of phantom bids, use of mis-leading re-structurings / development deals on PPR as valuation proxys etc.), then risk an empty auction room with no-bids (or very low ones).
Particularly effective if a non-domestic bidder (cashing out of their expensive London pad and with “£”).
Have a link to that ?
First up, White Lodge 9 Eglinton Park Dun Laoghaire is a bust.
I think SF and Lisney (two main higher end Dublin agents) must have met in a dark car park some night and choose 63 Dartmouth and 24 Sydney Parade Blackrock as their auction candidates (to avoid the first higher end auction strike out season since the GFC).
Both no brainers that would sell immediately at their 1.4m AMV (and will not be sold at auction if the only bids are at AMV - stupidly of the Dublin auction system).
Still nothing with an AMV above 1.5m (something that I think did not happen in a Dublin selling season, even during the GFC, although I am not fully sure re 2009).
Scores on the doors for SoCoDu higher-end auctions (c 1m and above) so far in 2016:
FAIL White Lodge (a.k.a. Marylands) 9 Eglinton Park, Dun Laoghaire for AMV 1.35m - no bids, now PT for 1.485m.
SOLD 63 Dartmouth Square for AMV 1.40m - a crazy low AMV (designed to pull them in), which sold at “true” M.V.
FAIL 66 Claremont Road, Sandymount, Dublin 4 - AMV 900k - withdrawn.
FAIL 119 Anglesea Road, Ballsbridge, Dublin 4 - AMV 1.1m - one bid at 1m (was sold later).
FAIL Wilton Lodge. 24 Sydney Avenue, Blackrock, Co. Dublin - AMV 1.45m - not sold, now PT for 1.45m
FAIL Kilmashogue House, Kilmashogue Lane, Rathfarnham, Co. Dublin - AMV 900k, not sold, now PT for 895k
Rockingham Cottage, Nerano Road, Dalkey, Co. Dublin, A96 EK16
Guide €950,000 - 4 bedrooms (200.02 sq.m)
lisney.com/sale/house-for-s … alkey/4626
Love this. Pity about no off-street parking, will turn a lot of people off. Just a few doors up from Khyber Lodge, which coincidentally appears to have not sold at its November 2014 auction (being flipped by its neighbours who bought it earlier that year, hived off the garden and wanted a free garden and their money back) as it didn’t reappear in the PPR. Auction brochure: sherryfitz.ie/files/Reapit/D … 001617.pdf
Rockingham is going to swallow €400k+ before you even consider extending, but will be a gorgeous house with a great garden.
Prices in Dalkey have been getting frothier. The 2,131sqft Octagon is sale agreed at at least €1m according to the most recent update on the pin about it (and it sold quickly too in spite of its right of way issues and weird location). Dubay on Knocknacree Road sold for €2.2m. Even The Breakers, a fisherman’s cottage on Coliemore Road sold for €770k (€963/sqft).
Let’s see how the auction goes.
What’s the incentive to sell by public auction these days? I suppose it makes sense for difficult to shift stuff (a lot of the allsop auctions) or people who are in a serious hurry, but I don’t really see why people do it for the high end.
AMV €600,000 - 78.04sqm
24 Fitzwilliam Lane, South City Centre, Dublin 2
myhome.ie/residential/broch … age=&view=
Good sized site for a mews house in this part of the world. Will well exceed AMV easily if recent mews sales are anything to go by, irrespective of its small square footage.
Isn’t Fitzwilliam Lane one of Mantissa’s favourite ‘noctural’ hangouts ?
Come on guys, this thread is for “high-end” Dublin auctions?
I know things have gotten so bad in high-end Dublin auctions, that even 900k AMV features, but 600k?