Household charges. Goverment can defer them for 6 years.

Simple arithmetic.

There are 1.7m households and each becomes liable for a household charges of €100 in January, Thie will raise €170m a year.

In January the government must decide whether to pay €1bn, 6 full years of household charges, to unsecured Anglo bondholders in one go.

Our TDs and Senators will be coming home to their constituencies next week for the christmas, you all know where to find them and tell them where their priorities lie in this matter. !!!

Well the ECB funds us and you can’t, unfortunately, bite the hand that feeds you.

If they say no bondholder burning, well, that includes Anglo, which is now defunct. This is the price we must pay for continued funding.

It is farcical, but there you go.

The contagion which they aimed to stop, by us not burning bondholders, has happened anyway, so time for Markozy to grow up.

Enda swears he spoke to the EU heads at the summit last week about getting a better deal for Ireland. Nobody on the EU side has confirmed this, nor if he actually got an agreement to this before he signed Ireland up to the deal.

He had a lot of cards last week but it would appear he didn’t play them. The UK was busy whinging and perhaps Enda didn’t want to cause another fuss!

we will never find out till we did the burn, and then actually got refused further payments. At a min we could have held out aggressively, threatening to bring down the EU, and gotten a deal on it maybe. You never know the other sides real hand till you start calling shots

Oh come on 2Pack. You know and I know that the Anglo payment will be made out of borrowed funds. Those funds are being added to our national debt. So the Anglo money is just another €1b being stuck on top of the existing €100b+ debt. It’s not existing money being taken from the mouths of babes.

If we had no deficit - if we weren’t borrowing any money - then that €1b would indeed be “our” money and paying it would be a direct drain on services. But since we do have that deficit we can’t have complaints when the lender tells us to redirect some of that money back to them in a great big circle. It’s just an accounting game.

The government should immediately declare there will be a referendum. At once, irrespective of legal advice. We then have several months to let Europe know that the price of a Yes is clear - Ireland’s bank debt, or a very large part of it, disappears. That’s a strong position given what good little bitches we’ve been the last 3 years, doing what we’re told. Well Angela, here’s the bill for that.

What isn’t a strong position is the simplistic suggestion that €1b Anglo money paid in January is €1b that could be going into schools or hospitals. It quite simply is not.

+1

What about the Greeks? Are they not having an organised bonfire? they continually get their next tranche.

It’s out of the mouths of babies not born yet.
It’s real cash to people who don’t deserve it.
It’s not a game.

According to Seamus Coffey, interest payments on bank debt make up around 5% of the deficit. A structural deficit which the household charge/putative property tax and associated broadening of the tax base is going to assist in addressing.

Suggesting that burning bondholders would negate the need for a property tax and other austerity measures is absurd.

economic-incentives.blogspot.com/2011/11/deficit-and-banks.html

It’s irrelevant really. As long as we have this deficit hanging over us then we can have no tangible argument. Property tax of some kind is payable in every other country. The real problem is our “cyclical” budgetary tactics - give when we have it (even when it’s income that is dependent on a boom) and take it away when we don’t.

This country, or this and every other government have got to get wise when it comes to spending taxpayers money, it’s not about giving and taking - it’s about regulation, it’s about spending wisely, it’s about getting real.

During the boom we had lower than 4% unemployment. What did we do? Raised the entitlement. Did we look at why, with so many jobs available that we had 4%? No… We pumped over ONE BILLION EURO into FAS… Hallo.

The problem is not about introducing a property tax, it’s about when we introduce it, when we are on our knees.

This government is far worse than the last one. No joined up thinking, stealth taxes introduced when people are at the pin of their collars.

Those who can will pay this tax, those who can’t will have an exemption.
The Irish are the most conservative people in the world…

OSB

PS - please spare me the “We paid stamp duty” argument.

Many who paid it during the boom also sold property at a huge profit while sticking stamp duty onto the price of the property…

Just €1,000,000,000? That’s alright so.

It’s real money being borrowed which will have to be repaid. Would you be happy if you borrowed €100,000 from the bank only to be told that you’d only get €95,000, with the €5,000 being redirected back to the bank? I don’t think so.

I am going to ask politely, one single time, that you don’t patronise me like this again.

I agree with Larry.

It’s borrowed money that we have NO CHANCE of repaying. The lenders may be in denial but the harsh reality is that without this debt we still have a massive deficit.

If we had this bank issue and no deficit then that would be one thing - but the existence of this huge deficit, our massive unemployment stats, the collapse of our income simply shows a that we have and have had bad governance, bad regulation and simply we are and were unable to cater for ourselves.

OSB

In normal times that would of course be madness, but BECAUSE OF THE DEFECIT we have to accept the terms offered as no-one else will fund us. We need the €95,000 now and the only way we can get it is to agree to suck up the pain of the other €5,000. (In the example given)

@OSB The timing may suck but that’s not up to us either as the draw down of those badly needed funds are dependant on meeting the targets agreed at sovereign government level with the troika. The fact that people are at “the pin of their collars” is down to our own regularity failure for the most part. The longer we delay the correction the worse the debt.

We are not in a happy place but to conflate paying back Anglo debts with the introduction of a long overdue household charge is just nuts. Nuts.

@ jimmyoats, that Seamus Coffee piece is very interesting, ta.

Absolutely, I completely agree with you. My point is that regulation and governance failed us on every count. Had we had the good governance and good practices in place then we would not be in this situation.

Part of those good practices is correct taxation and wise spending.

Any chance of adding a poll to the topic asking will you pay the household charge tax? I’d be very curious as to what pinsters feel about it really. I think I’ll be in the no camp.

How is it a strong position? The consequence for the rest of the Eurozone of us leaving in a disorderly manner are not particularly great. The consequences for us a dire. In fact, I’d say Merkozy would happily call our bluff to have a civil breakdown to point to, pour encourager les autres…

Paying Anglo bondholders is what’s absurd. I think it was originally being done to keep up the pretence. In the context of all that is going on in Europe it is absurd to continue with the policy.

A poll tax, which is what this is, is absurd. They charge the same amount no matter what the property size and location.

Edit: Do my eyes deceive me or does a guy get trampled by a horse at 4.57 :open_mouth:

Why should I pay a household charge when a ( junior structure) gambler can simply go fuck himself instead ???

Anyone wanna bet it isn’t Commerbank we are paying off???

Just reading the details of the Household Charge here

moneyguideireland.com/househ … tails.html

I noted:

The definition of a residential property includes – house, maisonette, flat , apartment , bedsit.
So – the owner of a building split into 5 bedsits will be liable for five lots of Household Charge.

Billing: No bills or invoices for this household charge will be sent – the charge will be on a self declaration basis.

Late payment penalties will apply :

Payments made within 3 and 6 months of January 2012 – a 10% penalty.
Payments made between 6 and 12 months late – a 20% penalty.
Payments more than 12 months late – a 30% penalty plus 1% interest per month

But the very best one is:

If charges remain unpaid, a charge will remain attached to the property – if a property is sold the new owner becomes liable for outstanding charges and penalties.

So some poor eejit buys your house, and gets stumped with your bill! Gotta love it.

You’d hope the eejit has a decent solicitor who investigates the property before allowing the transaction to go ahead.