Identity


#6

It is interesting how people latch onto events elsewhere and then confuse their own reality: Black Lives Matter holding up traffic in the UK.


#7

Who claims differently?


#8

I don’t think it IS confusing their own reality. I think it’s a positive step forward where people want to make a positive change and show support to others in a different culture rather than being indifferent and tuning out. If it was innocent irish people being shot be police in America I don’t think anyone would think anything was wrong with people holding a protest in Dublin, and i’m sure they would welcome the support of Latinos, blacks etc instead of asking them was their reality confused?

And if you look at the people interviewed at the protests it’s kind of insulting to say they are latching on - some were black americans living in London who could identify very easily with the victims, others oppose police brutality, some would have felt the effects of racism and wanted to protest at how they felt policing was going.

As for people degrading the ‘blacklivesmatter’ by saying ‘all lives matter’, there was a good article about that
fusion.net/story/170591/the-next … aragraphs/


#9

The last time Irish people were being killed in another jurisdiction the British embassy in ballsbridge was burned out in protest.

Perhaps the protesters should head for the USA embassy rather than pissing off people who would otherwise would support them.


#10

That link (which to clarify is a blog that quotes a Reddit like it had been written by an eminent Logician) really sums up a lot PtG’s point.

  • The myopia of it ‘read paragraphs and print them and hand them to people. I’m just so convincing and convinced’. Did you ever see the like of this ?

  • the Reddit’s reference to a Hollywood movie really signals the shallowness of the writers life experience and lack of deep reading symptomatic of The click click click of a millennial and his superficial Internet search based intelligence

  • the general tone of shock/rage at anyone daring to contradict


#11

Not necessarily racist, but maybe just a twat. For example, the good old fashioned class war dichotomy seems to emanate from the same poisonous combination of too much indignation and too little empathy.

Whether ways of life have equal value is possibly a more interesting question. At the very least, there might be a good utilitarian argument in favour of approving, or at least not disapproving, of any habits that preserve the greatest degree of personal discretion consistent with peace and public order and discouraging those that eclipse the gaiety of nations and impoverish the public stock of harmless pleasure.

I’ve posted often enough here for you to know that by most people’s standards, I’m pretty close to asocial. I mix socially only with a small number of people with whom I have interests in common, but I recognise that I depend on others, both nearby and further afield, with whom I share at least material interests. I don’t really participate much in Irish society, but I’m perfectly happy to acquiesce to it.

As for expecting one’s neighbours to be fully integrated both socially and economically into the majority society, I don’t particularly care about either, nor think it’s important, as long as they’re not troublesome. I have no problem with people leading separate lives as long as they don’t try to impose them on others. After all, I largely do so myself. Nor do I care much if, within those conditions, they form self-contained subcultures. As an example, the Amish have opted out of much of the modern world and mostly keep to themselves, but you don’t hear of them blowing up their neighbours. (Still, even the Amish example isn’t perfect. Leaving the community is a very big thing and not easily done.)


#12

I endured 45 minutes of it. People have projected their existential angst on the fall of Rome since the fall of Rome. And even since Edward Gibbon’s supposedly scholarly historical treatment they have held it up as a mirror image of today’s society, warning about its frailties and vulnerabilities in spite of its successes. And, of course, they inevitably they bring their own prejudices to the story too. Molyneux’s story – at least as far as I’ve been prepared to watch – is that Roman immigration without assimilation is what “done for it”.

The funny thing is that the Romans engaged in similar projections of societal angst, but with Carthage as their subject. Rome was painted as the successor to Carthage’s greatness, with the inevitability of Roman victory written ex post facto into works like Virgil’s Aeneid. (There was nothing inevitable about it – the Punic Wars extended across more than a century and were the biggest in the history of the world at the time). Many Romans pondered about Carthage’s downfall, and wondered whether whatever fatal flaw brought it about might also beset Rome. I’ve no doubt some of them blamed the Berber immigrants, or the Numidian mercenaries used by the Carthaginians. I picture the right wing Roman press using it as a dire warning about the Goths and Huns.


#13

Yes, Rome’s rise was more a story of appropriating the beliefs and gods of conquered peoples as the empire spread. Subjects might not actually become Roman, just merely engulfed by the Roman world.

The whole thing was built on momentum and when that faltered then the cracks appeared.


#14

Getting back on topic:

There is no western world any more (assuming the OP means more than a geographical location). Its last vestiges are all but gone. The barbarian is inside the gate, and it’s not some Syrian bogeyman. It’s the product of a new irrationality that has its roots way back in the Protestant Reformation and the Enlightenment.

The former with it’s doctrine of sola scriptura jettisoned the rational modes of thought that the wider Christian churches had inherited from Greek philosophy. The latter, which had its roots in that same history of rational inquiry, got bogged down in positivism and then in scientism. America, which styles itself as the rightful inheritor of western culture, is caught in the crossfire of both these forces which have resulted in the so-called culture wars.

Europe is in a crisis too, but of a different sort. It has another conflict on its doorstep – the one between Sunni and Shia Islam. This is another conflict of irrational forces , but Europe has long since lost any confident rational philosophy of its own to assert. Instead it is fractured between petty nationalism, radical individualism, and a misguided humanism.

The OP is right that this is a search for new identities, but I don’t think the vestiges of “the West” will easily find any coherent new identity.


#15

Mod Note:
Had to clean up this topic substantially.
Let’s give it one more try for some proper debate.


#16

theguardian.com/commentisfr … n-politics


#17

foreignaffairs.com/articles … or-renewal


#18

Well total insanity can only last so long. Competing uncordinated power systems vying for control are dismantling and destroying each other. Very similar to death in an organic organism, maybe cancer in that rapidly expanding power systems without central direction are spreading in directionless areas eventually overwhelming the central organising authority leading to chaos/death. RF blog is the best explainion I have seen, although it is really just a restatement of Plato’s republic.


#19

Re the fall of Rome bit, may I present you with… THE LIST. Basically, anytime anyone finds anything they don’t like, that’s what destroyed the Roman Empire.

Personally, I blame golf.


#20

Black Lives Matter protestors chained themselves to a tripod on a runway in London City Airport this morning, shutting the place down. A protestor explained on the BBC just now that climate change is a racist issue, because black people are more likely to live near airports. The people using London City Airport were engaging in “frivolous travel” and were earning loads more than those living in the vicinity.

XX


#21

Excellent article about the loss/abandonment of the European/British working class by the new left with particular reference to the trend highlighted by the Brexit vote…

theguardian.com/politics/201 … ?CMP=fb_gu


#22

Is fiction writing to be the next victim of the politics of identity?

theguardian.com/commentisfr … assing-fad


#23

theguardian.com/commentisfr … liberalism


#24

East V West

Collectivism V Individualism

…and by extension the question of Human Rights V Collective Rights as the base premise for societal governance…

bbc.com/future/story/2017011 … erent-ways


#25

A result of the governance systems that have evolved in the West:

thejournalofneoabsolutism.wordp … /05/02/94/

and the incentives of those in power:

thejournalofneoabsolutism.wordp … -ontology/