Ireland - Real unemployment rate at 53%


#22

Time to revisit the concept of “work” I think, we still have the historic idea that people must earn their food.
These days most of the real work is done by machines and we don’t pay them a penny, only their purchase & maintenance costs, a bit like historic slavery.

Money should be treated an an economic lubricant instead of as a store of wealth where 99% of all money sits in the digital vaults of the elite.

Money should be pumped into the economy in the form of UBI and capital expenditure, to provide the basic income for people to have food and shelter. Those who want “nice stuff” can work and earn the extra and business grows from there. Taxation will be tailored to prevent money from accumulating at the top and starving the rest of the economy.

Most importantly, the money will be debt-free issued by the government as opposed to being “lent into existence” by banks that profit from that task. Banks who want as much debt in the system as possible to ensure their own wealth creation is infinite.


#23

David McWilliams

But Moral Hazard?


#24

Not much different from today, those who don’t/can’t work will have a lower standard of living than those who do.

Unlike today where many low paid workers are trapped in positions that make them financially worse off than someone who does nothing.


#25

Distort education and work ethic - why strive when UBI guaranteed?

Subvert democracy - welfare vote goes to 100%

Reform impossible.


#26

Education and striving to achieve a good additional income will be the difference between only renting a social house or owning your own house with a view/ or whatever floats your boat! Being able to get the nice things in life that UBI won’t finance.

Work & education will get you a better life as opposed to being forced to work to exist, we have (mechanised) slaves for that!


#27

Im not sure UBI is sustainable in the context of unemployment rates such as what we’re facing into.

Remember the above figures dont include the numbers engaged in public service or ngos etc who rely on tax take for their readies.

Maybe Im wrong but surely UBI presupposes a high net worth, highly productive society?


#28

Money is purely a faith based entity, we have faith that these pieces of paper can be exchanged for stuff, that is true whether it is lent into existence by a bank (must be paid back with interest) or spent into existence as UBI.
Depends on what you consider to be productive, there is a huge amount of productivity that simply supports other productivity.
For example many of the furloughed jobs simply existed because office workers needed to eat, commute etc. now these office jobs are being done from home, these support jobs are now left high and dry.

If (debt-free) money is used as an economic lubricant, it can circulate indefinitely within the same economy, like engine oil. Wealth is a purely man made function.

As long as the money has value, people will do things to get more of it, even if they’re given a small amount to exist. Taxation is always a powerful tool to use to prevent all the money sloshing into one place (a tool that isn’t used correctly right now).


#29

Just so the problem is not understated and sorry I don’t have the figures. We need to add number for real unemployment (53% of workforce) + number on pension support + number who are employed as civil servants gives a total number of dependent on state for social welfare / wages / pension.


#30

As I see it this has a decent chance of being the greatest depression the world has faced in 300 years (since the gold standard was popularized). There is worldwide plague, and depression at present. There may be substantial areas of famine in the months to come as well.

We are going to need an FDR style new deal. Relief Reform Recovery.
Government borrowing to build infrastructure that will pay for itself is IMHO key in this.
I see it as killing 2 birds with one stone. Its cheap to hire people to do infrastructure when there’s high unemployment. Cheaper still if your saving paying a social welfare payment.

Some suggestions:-

  • Would it pay to insulate and fit solar panels on homes if the cost was collected back as taxes over time? (Genuinely I am asking this as a question) It could be cost neutral or even save people money in the long run. People could afford the extra taxes from the money they save on gas and electricity bills and as a country we won’t have to pay fines for exceeding CO2 limits. As I see it we will need apprenticeship training programs in the early days of this to ramp up the number of qualified people working in this area to do this.

  • A government program where we built a lot of houses and sell them for what it cost to build them might be of use. Key is can we sell them for what it costs to build.
    We would reduce competition in the rental market. We would have a substantial saving on HAP as a result. Could it pay us to do this? (Again a genuine question).

Obviously this if practical would only amount to a tiny part of the solution.


#31

Good ideas, but borrowing more just leaves more debt for the future generations to pay back, Governments should take back the power to issue currency and spend thir own debt free money instead.


#32

Faith in money is a peculiar thing. I think a huge thing part of encouraging that belief is government willingness to accept it for the payment of taxes.


#33

I wonder would it be legal in the euro zone to allow tax credits to be traded the way money is. Governments issue them without having to borrow and promise to accept them for the payment of taxes.

Explain to people that whatever’s kept in circulation is free money the Government doesn’t have to borrow or pay interest on as long as tax credits are not used to pay taxes. Your doing your bit for your country by keeping these in circulation but you can always pay your taxes with them. At the least you would be giving the government an interest free loan.

Companies that pay taxes in Ireland can take them at no risk. Hence firms that pay taxes in Ireland are supported. You probably couldn’t buy an iPhone with them as Apple don’t pay enough taxes in Ireland.

You’d need a banking system to store these. Lets make banks that take them the safest in the world to encourage their use. Put rules on banks they have to keep a high % reserve of deposits of these tax credits. The idea might catch on if there’s a super stable banking system there could be international demand for Irish tax credits. The collapse of the money side of a bank should not effect the tax credit side of the bank and vice versa. Tax credits loaned by the bank would initially be used to promote economic activity as I could see a plumber who pays taxes in Ireland being willing to accept them but they probably couldn’t be used to pay for a foreign holiday.

I fully expect to be torn apart for how idiotic impractical deluded ridiculous and illegal an idea this is.


#34

At best it would take us up to 4-5 years to go back to pre-Covid-19 unemployment levels, more likely it would take us up to 6-10+ years to achieve that.


#35

Considering its governments that make the laws, they could legislate to legalise this if they wanted to.
Financial institutions (banks) may lobby against it though.


#36

Not sure we can treat the 425,000 on the temporary scheme as unemployed. Many are working away at home, busy as ever. It is the employer who has applied for the scheme because it was opened up so widely, and sure ‘it was going’. Many employees probably never even twigged they were put onto the scheme.
What percentage that is, I don’t know, Might be 1/3, might be a half.


#37

All people receiving any kind of direct or indirect governmental financial support are now de facto unemployed (53%). Yes, it’s highly likely that the government won’t be able to keep these schemes going for a very long time.


#38

Did large operations such as Ryanair apply for the emergency wage subsidisation scheme back in March?

Those who are losing their jobs are a combination of probation/fixed-term contract ends, resignations and redundancies, the company said.

Ryanair has operated less than 1% of their normal flight schedules during April, May and June.


#39

66%

Including people on April’s official unemployment count, the figures mean that 1.26 million, or a new record of 66% of the entire private sector workforce, are receiving some sort of Covid-19 or unemployment payment.

Src: https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/ireland-to-continue-in-acute-emergency-maybe-for-years-1000312.html

Seems you lot need to tone down the optimism in this thread. :icon_neutral:


#40

#41

Looks like the C19 payment is to be extended until August. Shall we end up with 70%+ by the end of it all?