Irexit / Eirexit, call it want you want. They want out!

ireland
eu

#41

@The Curious One
Something else.
The argument is not that we should not have/manage complexity. The argument is by whom, and for whose benefit and at what cost is this complexity managed. But the complexity is just 1 aspect of a bigger discussion.

When you ask that question, how does it make you feel?


#42

You have to use your own judgement, but I can’t accept the ‘Fianna Fail did it all’ narrative. Much as I despise them. Their rennaissance suggests a big chunk of Ireland has forgiven and forgotten since 2011, albeit their judgement is questionable.

The bond holders who loaded up the Irish Banking system with extravagant Credit growth where mainly British, German, French and Italian. They could not absorb losses, as their initial problem statement reflected that they faced a pension timebomb and a search for yield that predated the most extreme ramping of the Irish property market (post 1999 and monetary union).

The ECB/EU/IMF narrative is that Clowen and Ahern orchestrated it all at the top of FF. That is too unbelievable for a scam on such a scale.


#43

What no one can be in doubt about is that FF/Gr gave the banks a blank cheque with the guarantee, it was the EU that insisted it be offered to all banks operating in Ireland to allow a level playing field.

Don’t also overlook that all the Irish banks used sports personalities with zero financial credentials during the bubble to flog their own banks shares to the unsuspecting.

Also long term policies being sold to 90 years olds, and venders and brokers colluding with each other to fleaze to borrower, all these things happened and yet it was our regulatory systems did nothing in response. We actually only saw any reform under the bailout restructuring.

The giant pool of money which certainly fed into our market also went outside the EU too, but it was our decision to extend Section 23 and to not regulate the banking sector.


#44

I wouldn’t be prepared to let the ECB off the hook. We were in monetary Union. Report after detailed report went to Frankfurt from 1999 onwards. They knew everything that was happening here. Everything.

Their remit was to control prices through the money supply. The money supply was inflated under their watch through the creation of private sector credit.

Two sides to this story. The ECB and EU can only abdicate so much responsability for their Monetary Union. Can’t pin it all on Paddy. Feckless as he was.


#45

Whatever about allocating the blame.
We bit, and it’s us that seems to be on the hook.


#46

Despite your tone of great self certainty in your posts you seem to be completely unaware of how international law actually works. Its not like countries dont break up and change configuration on a regular basis. Before there were the EU sovereign regulatory agencies there were the separate national agencies, who had all signed the same treaties / agreements. With some small variations. Then the EU agencies inherits all the authority and prior agreements for the national agencies. When a sovereign country decides to recover its sovereign authority regarding international regulation / agreements the new authority inherits all of the prior corpus of existing agreements, regulations, rights and obligations. Then its up to the new national agency to negotiate any new agreements. Its not like there is a hard reset and everything to year dot is wiped clean.

For example the new state of Slovakia did not have to renegotiate every damn agreement and treaty signed by Czechoslovakia between 1919 and 1992. In inherited the lot. Legally speaking.

And that is why the EU made a very public announcement that an independent Scotland would have to reapply for EU membership. The international law convention being that successor states inherit all international treaty rights of preceding states unless otherwise barred. Like when West Germany annexed the DDR it did not automatically become a member of the Warsaw Pact…

As for what the EU can and cannot do, as against the EC and EEC in times past, a quick look at this will tell you.

eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/FR/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM:ai0020

As you seem to know so well how the EU works you will know exactly why I quote the French version.

Now the interesting bit is the second of the compétences, Les compétences partagées. Now unless your only source of information on the workings of the EU is the Irish Times you would know the this particular EU competence has caused a number of big political stories in both France and Germany in the last few years as EU law overruled what looked like on initial inspection purely national interests and jurisdiction. Like the Alstom case.

I might add that it will be directives under EU compétences partagées, initial ones in 2019 the main ones in 2022, that will shutdown most of Irelands MNC tax scams. If you want a detailed discussion it was discussed at length by several senior german SPD politicians in the recent Federal elections. Irelands MNC scams are a big deal in german politics. It was also raised when the SPD’s vetoed in the Bundestag Irelands attempt to pay back the last of the bailout money early. The Irish government want to repay the last tranche of the bailout money early. The EU said no. Because the German parliament said no. Because a major german politic party said no.

Thats how the EU works.

And why those of us who actually do know how it works are all for Brexit.

…as it seems a lot in France are too.

theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/21/emmanuel-macron-uk-yes-no-brexit-vote-mistake

And the book of the moment in France, the one they are all talking about, is this…

amazon.fr/Brexit-va-r%C3%A9ussir-Marc-Roche/dp/2226402217

the bien pensant are of course atwitter but most of the reviews are fairly positive.

The book is basically the long term UK corespondent of Le Monde (yes, Le Monde) saying that Brexit will be a roaring success for the UK.

Funny, that.


#47

The main strain of euroscepticism in Ireland is rural and anti-intellectual. It tends to be roman catholic and pro-life too.

Characters such as Nora Bennis, Dana, Kathy Sinnott, and Declan Ganley have tapped this vein down the years and done well in European elections.


#48

Shoot them, burn them. We don’t need these ‘untermenschen’ making us look uncool on the world stage.
If only we had more privately educated connected guys from the Dart belt running our country, our banks, our industry we’d be world leaders …oh wait!


#49

I have scrupulously avoided making any comment - positive or pejorative - about these people.

In fact Nora Bennis was very helpful in preparing for a school debate circa 1998.


#50

I think that the mere fact that you have decided to pigeonhole several diverse groups of people in one classification clearly shows that you have little or no respect for their opinions and would most likely be one who would be wanting a second vote if they voted against your wishes.

Anyway, as I mentioned earlier, I suspect that the EU will make Ireland choose between having a hard border in Ulster or in the English Channel if the UK refuses to put it in the North Channel.


#51

When I saw Mehole Martin saying that the EU was nasty to May for acting like a union I could see Fianna Fail starting to veer towards that anti-EU vote. They’ve pretty much made themselves irrelevant to many younger voters after the marriage and abortion refs, Sinn Fein is stealing their Republican Party crown so it seems they’re heading for safety on the margins.

I’m not so sure though it’s a wise move. Brexit hasn’t even happened yet.


#52

To be fair, our industry, such as it is, is mostly run by privately educated, connected guys from the US (and run from the US, at that). :wink:

For a recent couple of glorious years, the country and banks were run from Brussels, Frankfurt and Berlin. Oh, what bliss it was in that dawn to be alive… 8)


#53

Prior to the introduction of the European Arrest Warrant in 2003, the system of extradition that operated between Ireland and other European countries (beyond the UK) was that of the ‘Part II’ system ie it was governed by the Extradition Act 1965 as amended. In other words extradition between countries was indeed permissible. However, the process was cumbersome and was transacted via the diplomatic channel under diplomatic seal. In some instances extradition between Ireland and other countries beyond the UK was governed by separately negotiated bilateral treaties.

In the case of Ireland and the UK, a backing of warrant system was operated whereby warrants for somebodys arrest and subsequent extradition that were issued in one jurisdiction could be given effect to by police in the other due to mutual recognition of same by the courts in the respective jurisdictions. This arose as a result of the reality of the existence of the common travel area and the extent of movement of persons between Ireland and the UK as well as being a consequence of our shared history and common legal system.

The European Arrest Warrant system which replaced the old ‘Part II’ system between EU member states was introduced in 2003 in advance of the accession of the central and Eastern countries to the EU. It is basically a backing of warrants system (not unlike that which operated previously between Ireland and the UK) that operates across the EU whereby a warrant may be issued in Vilnius, transmitted directly to the Irish central authority and given effect to by the Gardai minus any diplomatic input.

It is simply incorrect to state that extradition, inter-European otherwise, did not exist prior to the existence of the EU, Eurojust or Interpol. The current system was incorporated into EU law as a reactive measure to the prospect of large numbers of wanted men and women being afforded the opportunity to move freely around the EU and (presumably) avoid arrest. In other words it was actually a measure conceived of to deal with a problem created by the EU itself through its own creation of a free travel/Schengen area of over 20 different countries.

Likewise, some of your other statements simply dont stand up to scrutiny. With regard to migration for example, while member states may have the right to determine their own immigration policy, rights afforded EU citizens under EU law have contributed to large numbers of non-EU nationals being afforded the right to live within EU countries (google ‘EU Treaty Rights’ for further info re one such if required).

Somebody else mentioned the bank bailout. Again, many are of the view that that particular act was simply the EU putting their “Irish friends” (as Macron decsribes us) over a barrell for their own benefit. Ditto the Greeks.

Thats not to say that we’re better off outside an economic union of sorts with our nearest neighbours. But an ‘ever closer’ political union crafted in the image of the likes of Macron and Varadkar?? Bollox to that.


#54
  • A plain text reading of the treat on the EU says that leaving the EU terminates all treaties. “The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification”.
  • The UK parliament’s position is that leaving the EU terminates all treaties.
    “Either there will be an agreement, in which case the provisions of that agreement will apply, or there will be nothing: ‘When I say nothing, I mean it. If the Treaties collapse for the UK, the whole legal building—all the legal documents hanging from the Treaties—will collapse.’ “ Interesting Parliament discussion Here
  • Also the EU’s position papers all say that the treaties all come to an end.

Considering that all parties agree and that there is no court anywhere in the world to bring a dispute to even if parties did disagree, then I think I can safely say that on leaving the EU everything would indeed need to be rebuilt. If Britain continues with Brexit or even more horrific if it comes to it that Irexit becomes a thing then everything needs to be rebuilt.


#55

There it is now - The "Hotel California Clause"

Such a treaty is ultimately, not worth a shyte as they say in some parts.

No courts? Boo hoo… politicians will have to Sovereign it out. That’s life.

*The Irish & European politicians ignored the sentiment of the Irish population. Twice. *

To the absolute detriment of the inhabitants of the island, their children and their grandchildren.

Let that be a warning. If the English choose not to make that mistake. So be it.

Meanwhile Irish politicians can not fault British politicians for at least respecting the wishes of the people despite the dire predictions, despite the real efforts to undermine those democratically cast & counted wishes i.e. Votes.

Spotted this recently before this thread was created - make of it what you will:


#56

A common sentiment I heard after the bailout is that we should still be building ghost estates where there was no demand just to keep builders and developers in business.


#57

another perspective…from @CormacLucey

EU is flawed but Irexit would be a mistake
hiberniaforum.ie/eu-is-flaw … a-mistake/


#58

I was at a talk where Cormac Lucy said breaking away from the UK was a mistake.

He’s a Brexit true believer.


#59

Dear yoganmahew was a proponent of “make work” if I remember correctly, way back in the day is that who you are referring to in couches terms? :smiley:

Which there has been plenty of if you look closely. However I don’t understand the context of purpose of your reply exactly. Unless of course you are making the point that kind of thinking would have held more sway under a more Sovereign flavour than we currently enjoy. Let us not forget we do have a history of building “follies”, which ironically are probably protected structures in most cases but certainly are being kept alive.

Yea we’re still spending (wasting) money on the catastrophic past during the current shelter famine.

I digress. Nice. Lisbon.

The EU is a by hook or crook kind of operation.


#60

Every large organization is a flawed mess. No exceptions.

Take a look at the Guards. There is a massive thread going back years describing what a flawed mess they are. Should we scrap them? There were no police forces a few hundred years ago, so let’s go back to that time. Wasn’t it great back in the seventeenth century, oh wait…

What about the HSE? Let’s go back to the County health boards, was this any better?

Irish water? Let’s not go there.

Maybe I’m being hard on the Irish Public sector, maybe tech companies are better. What about Microsoft? Yes well, some of these decades I’m sure they will get Windows stable.

When you get two or more people together you get mistakes, misunderstandings, compromises and eventually you get something that kind of, sort of, works but is better than the way things are without it. Everyone hates Microsoft office, it is riddled with bugs but yet everyone still uses it because as flawed as it is it is better than everything else.

The EU is flawed. Every single aspect of it has rough edges and warts. But how do you do what the EU does without having just as many flaws and warts? What is the alternative and how do you get it agreed and implemented without making an even bigger mess?

Yes it needs to be changed. Yes it has flaws. The only real option is to slowly fix things one by one and hope that things are fixed faster then new flaws show up. Throwing a brick through a window doesn’t solve anything other than breaking a window.