IT - Can we remake Ireland's future?


#3

It really is the only way to be sure.


#4

All our villages, towns, cities and sprawls are not ready for the tasks for the future that lies ahead.
Our political structures national and local governance are not ready for the tasks for the future that lies ahead.
Our educations systems are not ready for the tasks for the future that lies ahead.
Our systems of commerce are not ready for the tasks for the future that lies ahead.
Our systems of finance are not ready for the tasks for the future that lies ahead.

All of these systems have failed us.
They have been designed to fail.
Intentionally or unintentionally because they are not whole systems.

What has not failed us is the universe. You are still alive as you transit. You need no figurehead, priest, bishop, pope, clergy, monk to enjoy communion with the universe. There is no prefix to dial. You are connected before now and after.

I can’t show you. Only you yourself can listen. if you truly listen you will her first yourself. Understanding you can understand. Then understanding all you hear through yourself. When you understand you know nothing you can then converse with others grounded in the knowledge of your place, your center.

First there must be introspection.

The only thing ready is an inbuilt ability to survive and adapt.
As long as we outsource this ability to the failed systems above there is no hope.
There is only oblivion.

The only thing that can remake our future is us. We can. Yes we can as long as we do not make the mistake to absolve ourselves of our responsibilities to failed systems and then expect those system to save us.

Only then when the decision has been made to trust ourselves once more will we have the collective strength and wisdom to find the solutions of our making and allow them to happen and enjoy their fruits. Centre yourself and listen.


#5

Leaving aside the other issues raised in the above article, is it not the case that the need for economic growth at any cost, which is inherent in our current way of doing things, must be seen as a genuine flaw in the system?

Sometime in the 90s Ireland got to the stage where everybody in the country had enough to eat, the vast majority of people were in a position to put a roof over their heads and most people were working, yet we embarked on a plan of action designed to continue to grow the economy by as much as possible. Its crystal clear today that the growth which occurred during the past decade has left us with a damning legacy which is at the heart of all the negatives charted daily on the Pin. Is it not about time that we began to address this very real flaw which exists at the heart of our current way of thinking?

For example, if a country attains the means to provide its citizens with the basics in standard of living terms, why is it required to keep growing ad infinitum? When that growth can be seen to have been a destructive or malignant force why is it that we must seek to strive for it?

Even now, much comment seems to be focussed on what needs to be done to get back to a situation where we can begin to grow the economy again. Why? Inherent in much of the comment on the Pin are suggestions as to how things could be done so much better than they have been. Yet, there has been little examination of this concept that I have noticed. This is probably due to the standard ideological connotations that such a debate would be likely to draw from many contributors due to their seeing themselves as standing to the left or the right. Yet if we look at the issue from a logical rather than an ideologically based standpoint, it seems utterly illogical to base our entire system of doing things around the need for constant growth. All of us live in a world where we know that the laws of nature dictate that nothing can grow forever ie trees dont grow to the sky. So why does such an illogical concept underpin our entire system?

Perhaps its time to start casting a critical eye over not just the consequences and mishandling of the boom, but also some of the very assumptions which underlied it.

Here is an interesting video which was posted by GreenBear way back when in which a Mathematician examines the concept of exponential growth in arithmetical terms. While he applies his reasoning more to the issues of population and energy, I think it applies equally to the concept economic growth. Thought provoking to say the least…

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2679&p=20477&hilit=+exponential#p20477


#6

Yep its a design flaw. No one will admit it (well most won’t let alone even notice it). Cause it affords control to those who need power to justify their egos. Start form the centre and work out. Somewhere we all get to meet along the way!


#7

OW, have you ever considered writing a self help book?


#8

For my own part, I see so much destruction ahead that we have to look for opportunities for growth. We will be back to a position of the early eighties - declining industries in existence, the government floundering around pissing money up a wall in an attempt to convince us that our lot is fine, few new opportunities on the horizon. In other words, probably the last ten years (and certainly the last five years) of employment opportunities wiped clear.

I do agree with you that we need to get to a stage of some balance, that is, that we should get to the position where new growth is to replace existing declines. We then become a traditional slow, but steady,growth European economy where the standard of living goes up slowly, but doesn’t decline much in recessions.

We shouldn’t be in the position that we have to import manual labour. We shouldn’t be in the position that we have to import skills. But if you over-heat an economy as badly as we have, that is the result.


#9


#10

Just to be clear, Im not suggesting that we all go back to living in caves or begin to live in trees or whatever. Far from it. My point is that surely, when we attain a certain standard of living and (hopefully/ideally) a decent way of doing things in terms of the provision of services etc, our objectives should then alter. At that point we should be looking at means of consolidation rather than aspiring to more more bigger and better. It would require a shift in our entire way of looking at the world and would also require a move away from our consumer capitalist model. As an Irish person you’ve got to be deeply cynical as to whether such a shift is possible. For whatever reason, we simply are not Scandinavians. Its also far easier to blame the Government (whom we voted into office) for everything than to take any degree of personal responsibility for anything.


#11

Ha ha… I hope you are being sarcastic (where is the dam smiley). Yes I am great for telling people what to do but I do realise only peopel have the power to do it themselves. I can only decante how I perceive and hope it opens peoples perceptions right back to themselves and beyond! :slight_smile:

I was jsut reiterating a I chat I had with a old friend about this very aspect of human nature.

I was going to open a post about TRUST and how trust is the essential glue for society we all work by subconsciously and how that if that TRUST is continually vaporized by the powers that be people will freak out. I oftne feel I am stating the obvious but it seems its never stated enough and so much is assumed. So to start you must first trust yourself. If you can’t trsut and live yourself then hwo in hells name can you mae a decision to trust someone else? Big dilemma that and I think it explains why society seems bipolar at best and democracy so open to manipulation.

So many have been running on panic for years! Not listening to themselves but bouncing like a pinball in a machine of endless advice, pressure of external inputs. So many inputs in you that need to output first before you start to deal with all the external noise screaming at you.

Also the subject of WISDOM is very rarely discussed in modern life expect when its too late.
The West is not so wise. Its fast and clever but not wise. We need to strike the elgant balance between the two. Its our most earnest need.

This is what happens when OW starts to do a bit of cleaning in the house :unamused:


#12

Ah, you’ve been at the solvents again. Makes sense. :nin


#13

Oddly enough this is the gist of a conversation I was having with me auld ma and her sister about 3 hours ago!

I don’t think most people are actually stupid as such (some are, obviously) or that people in general are naturally vain, shallow, selfish, greedy and utterly vacuous (though again some people are just like that). It’s that the way our society is structured, the very nature of our “education” system and the nature and volume of mass media and consumerist advertising-driven white noise means that most of these people actually have no idea who they are. There’s no real foundations there, no real fundamental person, no solid identity and self-image based on anything real.

Hence herd mentalities and celebrity frenzies and people always running around in a fear and a panic and always looking for their next adrenaline fix. How can you expect them to make informed ethical choices or to recognise blatant wrongdoing when they have no personal internal framework within which to examine and categorise the chaotic stream of inputs they are receiving?


#14

This is basically the same thing Debord was on about with his ‘society of the spectacle’ thesis:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_the_Spectacle


#15

Poacher turned gamakeeper wrote:

I think the answer to that one is, from a business point of view and control of the economy point of view so obvious it hardly needs answering.If you know that banks are in complete control of governments and they have seen their scheme for vast profits just fall apart,do you think they will just give a collective shrug of the shoulders and say “0oh well it was a good party while it lasted,now we’ll have to go back to boring old banking,offering depositors good interest rates,offering personal loans and lending to businesses, with mortgages a much smaller part of our overall business?”

It’s not going to happen is it?When they have had the level of control over people where they were absolutely desperate to buy a property -any property at ludicrous multiples of their unproven earnings-for fear of the price running away from them,and at new estates people were camping out over night to secure the right to buy the overpriced shoe boxes,why would the system be allowed to change?They have to keep that fear and greed in the forefront of peoples minds.

Taxpayers now underwrite their losses,buy up surplus properties,guarantee loans to buy the empties,and pay for immigrants rent.Inflation will erode away the debt of existing buyers,give it a couple of years and prices will start to go back up,people will then be caught in a mad scramble to buy once they realise the long awaited crash isn’t going to happen.

Savills have done a study of UK property prices and reckon most areas will have got back to peak prices by 2013/4,northern Ireland is different in that they estimate it will take until 2018 for prices to get back to the bubble era. I don’t think they will be far out.Money printing here we come,and before anyone says it -yes the ECB will do whatever it has to, to stop houses falling in price,and that includes printing money.Everyone on here said they wouldn’t slash interest rates when I predicted it over a year ago and they will be equally wrong again,inflation is about to explode and go out of control.

dailymail.co.uk/property/art … n-how.html


#16

Oh dear god.

You know, as a liberal myself, I do my best to have time for theatre critic Fintan O’Toole.

But why does he get it so wrong so reliably?

Our leaders find themselves in a war situation. When Hannibal was planning his next move against the Romans, he did not worry about “sustainability”.
Taking elephants over the Alps? Sustainable? No, but it was effective.

When Kasparov is losing at chess, does he ask whether his next move is “sustainable”? Ridiculous, his aim is to survive and go on to win.

“Sustainability” is a favourite cant of intellectual light-weights who they have no clue what is going on or what to do next.


#17

sustainability is exactly whats needed. its precisely because ireland was on an unsustainable borrowing binge that we are in the shit now. mortgages of 2.5 times income over 20 years leads to a sustainable property market. progressive taxation leads to a more equitable society, jail for corrupt politicians, bankers, and builders leads to a more sustainable society etc etc blash blahn.


#18

no system, physical or human, is ever sustainable. its a bogus concept, a false god, a utopian fantasy, sorry.

if you doubt that, read Nassim Talebs Black Swan again. the world is just far, far too unpredictable.

politicians talk about “sustainablity” to get the meathead vote. there is no such thing as a “sustainable” social or
economic system. things happen, thats how the world is. we respond and adapt.

what we need are strategies to take us out of current mess with minimum damage, followed by
an entirely new approach to risk allocation and management.

ireland could lead the world in Capitalism 2.0 if our leaders had a clue. its small enough a country to try things out.

unfortunately, with populist bullshit like “sustainability” doing the rounds, we cannot expect much. :frowning:


#19

I have to agree.

Do you want the Fire Brigade to use the water ‘sustainably’ when they’re trying to put out the fire in the house ?

Pretending we can predict the future is what got us into alot of this shit. Of course the same people who claim that ‘No one could have seen it coming’, also are happy to credit themselves with the foresight to put together a ‘sustainable’ recovery.


#20

You just defined sustainability. :unamused:

Except, in chess, sometimes you also have the smarts to realise that the draw is the most realistic positive outcome for you and you adapt your game to achieve that.


#21

There has to be some approach between the ‘whack-a-mole’ approach of just randomly promising massive amounts of money to all & sundry; & a tentative, half-arsed, piecemeal, do nothing for fear of having an impact approach, as typified by the half percent VAT increase & the Developers bailout.

But the problem is TUG that if our politicians try sustainable they end up doing nothing but wasting the money ?

About the only Politco(s) in the Dail with the intellect to do sustainable, & not fuck it up, are Richard Bruton & Ruairi Quinn.


#22

Eh… I was just pointing out the irony of bungaloid’s comment.

But don’t ask me what I think of you.

I might not give the answer that you want me to. :wink: