It's those damn atheists' fault.

I was reading an article by Prof. Ray Kinsella from UCD in the Irish Examiner last evening about corporate governance etc. Most of it was pretty standard stuff about the need for increased regulation etc.

Then, bizarrely, towards the end of the article he started blaming shareholder capitalism and how deviating from the teachings of the holy books of Christianity, Islam and Judaism lead us into this mess.

The article is not on the Examiner website but some searching revealed a similar article from May: … 50188.html

**"There is a very rich body of literature centred on the common good, which reflects the Christian approach to business, and a very practical one it is. Had the “masters of the universe” who precipitated such carnage on the financial markets even a passing acquaintance with the teachings of the Koran, then the world economy would be in a much more stable position than is currently the case.

For Orthodox Jews, the first question they will be asked when they confront their Creator is: “How did you conduct your business affairs?” The Torah and also the Talmud provides an astonishingly prescriptive and detailed guide to conducting business affairs not alone in terms of the law, but more importantly the principle of the law. Tsedek (fairness and justness) and chessed (goodness) provide the foundation for all business activities within Judaism. They require that one follow not alone the letter of the law, but also its spirit of the law ( Lifnim Mishurat Hadin )."**

The Examiner article yesterday was much more trenchant than this. There could be an increase in religious extremism in the West if this economic meltdown worsens.

It appears to me that the threat of being smitten by an avenging God is all that keeps religious people from committing appalling cries. I’m happier in the company of someone who has their own moral code and isn’t working off a set of someone else’s rules.

What a dick.

Firstly it would appear his acquaintance with the Qur’an is dodgy at best (since it is probably the most horrifyingly evil religious book ever composed).

Secondly aren’t the Jewish rules only applicable between Jews? Wasn’t that the reason they were able to charge non-Jews interest etc.?

Who the hell is Ray exactly?

BS! That type of comment is probably motivated by simple bigotry. The Old Testament, for example, has quite a lot of nasty content. The Talmud contains detailed advice about cheating and murdering Gentiles. And I’m sure that other religions have their own brand of same.

Anyhow, the guy might be referring to the ban on usury in the Koran. Without interest, there might be less boom/bust, but there’d also be less economic growth. Interesting debate, though.

is it extreme? growing up in ireland with an intolerant and arrogant common religion made me view any one who professed faith as been dangerous and to be ignored at any cost.
as i get older i find that unaccountable and state religions are indeed extremely dangerous when logic and reason are absent. ultimately a free society allows people to adopt moral code from the experiences of the past teachings for the benefit of the future.
it really is a catch 22, how to tolerate the intolerable, there is a moral lesson in that.
don’t be surprised if you meet some burnt out traders soon who need something, anything to make sense of their life now that it’s deep in the red. if all around them there is only carnage, then they revert to the lessons of the past. i met a few from the dot-com bust.

Article in a similar vein from David Quinn in the Indo.

He begins in a reasonably sensible fashion …

Before going off on one about single mothers, unmarried people having sex and the need for the church to impose moral code because nobody else can be trusted to do it.

this thread is wasted without who`ll take the rap :smiley: … ykinsella/

First Marc Coleman and now Ray!

Are there any more economists out there who want to come out as fundamentalist christians??

What a load of crap.

Typical of them to take advantage of genuine economic problems to try and bolster their “faith”.

“It would have been better if we’d never gotten rid of the inquisition. And as for those witches, its all their fault…” - can’t wait to get back to them there days.

Religion (opium for the masses and all that) arose from the need for society to control people’s otherwise-uncontrollable actions. Nowadays, in the absence of regulation, it could follow that some people might try to use religion as a way of controlling or influencing people’s actions again, their financial actions (as opposed to bludgeoning your neighbour).

Ain’t gonna work though! Got to get the regulators back in!

Read all the books then have you?

unbelievably sectarian and bigotted comment. It’s a book. books aren’t evil, people are evil. interpretations of centuries old texts are fraught with danger.

Bible full of examples of exhortation to genocide and rape. for centuries the Koran was interpreted in a far more liberal and tolerant way than christians interpreted the bible. Now we are seeing Saudi oil revenue promote he values of a particularly virulent and intolerent sect within Islam. many interpretations are not even of the koran but of other minor texts and traditions.

I will defend the right of anyone to believe in their god and my right to disagree with with them but to brand the koran as “evil” displays a stunning lack of comprehension.

I suppose Mein Kampf is more paletable?

petty prejudice. wilful ignorance and deserving of the David Duke award for intolerant post of the month.

in terms of playing the ball and not the man your post deserves a two footed tackle over the top with studs showing hopefully resulting in a broken tibia.

BB if you wake him then on your head be it. I currently enjoy a happy life without needing to be reminded of the evilness of condoms on a daily basis.

And the forecast for the weekend is BD BD BD XD 8-

Well I have been thinking that as people head further into economic despair, the time could be right to start a new religion. Say what you like about L.Ron Hubbard, but he sure knew how to make a buck. :smiling_imp:

Actually, believe me, I know what I’m talking about - though perhaps I was being too flippant, considering the context of people who do not know that and given Irish people’s generally very low knowledge of Islam and the low level of criticism generally in Western culture (i.e. mostly cloaked racism).

The fact that there are many Muslims who do not follow their religion literally (and in fact some have even managed to make a silk purse out of a pig’s ear - e.g. Alevis, Ismaili, some Sufis, or a slightly less ugly pig’s ear from a pig’s ear - e.g. Alawites, Ahmadi) does not take from the fact that the literal interpretation (i.e. the true interpretation) is far more unpleasant than any other religion - bar none.

Here’s a good blog of an American-Pakistani girl blogging the Qur’an, which is worth reading in this context:

Indeed - Mosaic law is even more crazy than Sharia in some respects and if you were unfortunate to be of the peoples marked for extermination, even more evil. Fortunately though it is limited in geographical ambition (unlike Sharia),its craziness means that few people would seriously suggest its implementation (again unlike Sharia) and everyone who was marked for extermination has now been exterminated (unlike in Sharia).
As a religious book however, The Tanakh, from which Mosaic Law is derived, is more focussed on Jews rather than Gentiles, whereas the Qur’an focuses on the Kuffar rather than the Muslimeen - and it is to this fact that I refer.
Rather than give huge amounts of data to support this claim, may I submit as evidence, this page from the creators of the lolkoran (which mirrors the lolcatbible, in case you aren’t down with young kids of today)

If you want me to start citing support from atheists and secularists from around the Islamic world, (even in Afghanistan there are some), I can.

EDIT: Here is a quote from an English-Egyptian ex Islamic school teacher, now a agnostic/deistHassan Radwan.
…Actually there can be no unbiased person who could ever claim that the Gospels are anywhere nearly as violent as the Qur’an (or Old Testament for that matter) - but it is all mumbo jumbo as far as I’m concerned…

In case you think he is “just a bigot”, he does give material which supports an opposing view
I know some people want to portray Islam as all evil and hate-filled. But that is as unbalanced and misguided as those who claim it is all good and wonderful. So for the sake of balance and fairness, here are some nice bits from the Qur’an.(cites examples)…

I’d also like to add that the Tanakh is the second most evil religious book ever written (the reason for 2nd place having already been discussed) - though I would be prepared to entertain arguments that the Bible is.

with what do you replace the religion of the ever increasing house values.
i can not see a rush for any of the traditional religions, i think alcohol can not cover the cracks anymore so this may just be the right time to launch the First Church of Pin.
then we’d have missionaries and such like all over the world, but then there’d be a split when someday someone will ask “if we haven’t built houses for a while, will there be a shortage” and suddenly…

UCD has always been a breeding ground for religious fundamentalism

Apart from demonstrating your (obsessive?) bigotry, this has *what *to do with property or economics?

Not much - merely pointing out that my flippant comments come with more nuanced understanding than you believe/suggest.
I would have preferred if people would have answered my question as to who this Ray guy is though - in which case discussion of economics could return.

Tut. I think the point of the article is that economics needs to get back to discussion of first principles, rather than trying to force traditional religious points of view down peoples’ necks. Anyway, it seems to me it’s often the majority secularists who are the closed-minded, law-book bashers these days…

there is a book called ‘the final crash’ and one of the predictions is that as an economy goes to pot that people turn to god more, and we’ll see religious commentary enter into the mainstream. it makes sense, after all, look at the effect and public sway that religion has in many poor countries - it used to be the same here. i hope we don’t see the return of church into state affairs