MCW - €4.5k per pupil, per year subsidy to private schools

[FirstBass]

Re: the Talented Pupil. It’s a ruling in favour of the mother’s wishes in a broken marriage, somewhat sensationalised to portray it as a judge deciding where the kid should go to school. The idea that you wont get as good an education in the state schools is completely bogus IMO, particularly with a very bright kid who would do well anywhere.

[FirstBass]

So it’s the time of year that journalists are relying on MMO’C for comments.

What’s the point in saying the government can’t afford 55 schools when 12 are applying. We’d be more interested to know can they afford the 12.

“buy the school out”? The government has always used schools it doesn’t own.** I assume they won’t need to buy the school buildings.**

The state is already paying the teachers, so are we talking only about the capitation grants of around 500e per pupil? If so unless there are huge numbers of students it’s hard to see it putting much of a dent in the education budget.

That’s a fairly big assumption (in bold)

If the school is owned and operated by a Trust but cannot continue with its current funding model, why would the trust volunteer to hand over full use of all its assets to the state, for free, particularly in light of the school being forced into this position by the policy changes of the state?

If Blackrock college had to go free for example, do you think the trust that operates it will jsut hand over all lands and buildings to the State? Or do you think the State should seize the assets?

The state is already paying the teachers, so are we talking only about the capitation grants of around 500e per pupil? If so unless there are huge numbers of students it’s hard to see it putting much of a dent in the education budget.

The costs have been estimated elsewhere but it is more than the capitation fee

25,600 pupils are in the fee-charging sector, so that is c. €12 million in capitation alone

The pupil teacher ratio is 19:1 for state, 23:1 for private.So (25600/19)-(25600/23)= 234 extra teachers to be paid for by the state. At a rolled up average cost of €50k per teacher that’s another €12 million or so annually

Add in the admin staff needed for the schools that are currently paid for out of fees
Add in the maintenance costs of buildings
Add in whatever the department will have to pay to the trusts to use the school in the first place

I think the bill could be very substantial, if it is c. €25 million per annum in directly predictable costs for capitation and teacher’s salaries.

[Mossy_Heneberry]

Well, who could have predicted that?

Anybody know which schools are applying?

I think Newtown based in Waterford is going to apply.
Am I right in thinking that’s another Church of Ireland school?

No, it was established by the Quakers.

newtownschool.ie/

[Ixelles]

Re: the Talented Pupil. It’s a ruling in favour of the mother’s wishes in a broken marriage, somewhat sensationalised to portray it as a judge deciding where the kid should go to school. The idea that you wont get as good an education in the state schools is completely bogus IMO, particularly with a very bright kid who would do well anywhere.

Can other parents point to this decision if they are in similar circumstances and say it’s reasonable for them to expect the best education available for their child?

[FirstBass]

Re: the Talented Pupil. It’s a ruling in favour of the mother’s wishes in a broken marriage, somewhat sensationalised to portray it as a judge deciding where the kid should go to school. The idea that you wont get as good an education in the state schools is completely bogus IMO, particularly with a very bright kid who would do well anywhere.

Can other parents point to this decision if they are in similar circumstances and say it’s reasonable for them to expect the best education available for their child?

Excellent point. I suppose someone in front of the courts for bankruptcy could claim the school fees are necessary for this reason

[Tyler]

Trend seems to be against private schools which is interesting as everything else will be privatised.

Didn’t Warren Buffett say they should be banned? I assume he also meant private third level colleges too?

[FirstBass]

Excellent point. I suppose someone in front of the courts for bankruptcy could claim the school fees are necessary for this reason

“As a bankrupt, I insist that my children get the chance of having a better education than people who pay their debts, and my creditors should pay for it…”

That of course sounds absurd and in any other country nobody would dare to chance their arm with such a strategy…

[slasher]

Excellent point. I suppose someone in front of the courts for bankruptcy could claim the school fees are necessary for this reason

“As a bankrupt, I insist that my children get the chance of having a better education than people who pay their debts, and my creditors should pay for it…”

you make it sound like a hypothetical

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=35717
independent.ie/opinion/analy … 58048.html

Last week, poor Simon told Wicklow District Court that he’s finding it awfully hard to manage to have any sort of a life on €80,000 a year. He owes €17m to ACC bank (not his only debt), but he really can’t see a way to pay it off – although he might be able to manage, say €100 a week? The judge made no order for payment, citing “lack of funds”.

You see, poor Simon has five children, his home is in his wife’s name, and he pays upwards of 27 grand a year for school fees. Yes, you heard right: twenty-seven thousand.

[nige]

The costs have been estimated elsewhere but it is more than the capitation fee

25,600 pupils are in the fee-charging sector, so that is c. €12 million in capitation alone

The pupil teacher ratio is 19:1 for state, 23:1 for private.So (25600/19)-(25600/23)= 234 extra teachers to be paid for by the state. At a rolled up average cost of €50k per teacher that’s another €12 million or so annually

Add in the admin staff needed for the schools that are currently paid for out of fees

those admin fees will come from the capitation grants already counted.

Add in the maintenance costs of buildings

this is will also come from the capitation grants.

Add in whatever the department will have to pay to the trusts to use the school in the first place

or don’t. Let the students squeeze into the other schools in the areas.

I think the bill could be very substantial, if it is c. €25 million per annum in directly predictable costs for capitation and teacher’s salaries.

I don’t see it being much higher than the 25m (I’ve presumed you’ve used the right figures for the capitation grants and teachers salaries).

[coc]

That’s the worst case scenario, assuming that every single private school decides to let the plebs play rugger with the master race. As of right now, it looks like we’re only talking about a quarter of them.

The principle that public money cannot be ringfenced to the benefit of a few and to the exclusion of the majority should be established and defended. If that costs €6-7 million, so be it.

[HiFi]

That’s the worst case scenario, assuming that every single private school decides to let the plebs play rugger with the master race. As of right now, it looks like we’re only talking about a quarter of them.

The principle that public money cannot be ringfenced to the benefit of a few and to the exclusion of the majority should be established and defended. If that costs €6-7 million, so be it.

It depends on what you mean by “public money”. I would be absolutely certain that the parents of those attending fee-charging schools, pay on average, much more tax than the “majority.” They are net givers to the State’s coffers, rather than takers, like so many in Irish society.

[Tyler]

That’s the worst case scenario, assuming that every single private school decides to let the plebs play rugger with the master race. As of right now, it looks like we’re only talking about a quarter of them.

The principle that public money cannot be ringfenced to the benefit of a few and to the exclusion of the majority should be established and defended. If that costs €6-7 million, so be it.

It depends on what you mean by “public money”. I would be absolutely certain that the parents of those attending fee-charging schools, pay on average, much more tax than the “majority.” They are net givers to the State’s coffers, rather than takers, like so many in Irish society.

Paying tax is a benefit of being privileged
Could be a boom for the economy if all these school fees get released into local communties - coffee shops, restaurants, gyms- 3 kids in Blackrock is 30k in pre-tax income. I suspect a few parents will be quitely smiling to themselves as they work out what they would spend that on for themselves

[FirstBass]

The costs have been estimated elsewhere but it is more than the capitation fee

25,600 pupils are in the fee-charging sector, so that is c. €12 million in capitation alone

The pupil teacher ratio is 19:1 for state, 23:1 for private.So (25600/19)-(25600/23)= 234 extra teachers to be paid for by the state. At a rolled up average cost of €50k per teacher that’s another €12 million or so annually

Add in the admin staff needed for the schools that are currently paid for out of fees

those admin fees will come from the capitation grants already counted.

Add in the maintenance costs of buildings

this is will also come from the capitation grants.

I think the bill could be very substantial, if it is c. €25 million per annum

in directly predictable costs for capitation and teacher’s salaries.
I don’t see it being much higher than the 25m (I’ve presumed you’ve used the right figures for the capitation grants and teachers salaries).

There’s a list of grants here jmb.ie/school-grants
Capitation is €306 and the Support Services Grant €201 - so those two together adds up to just over €500.

There are separate grants for Secretary and caretaker. That’s in addition to the €12 million. I don’t know if fee-charging schools get the same grants for Science, transition year etc - I suspect not.

Capital expenditure is separate, that’s in addition to the €12 million also.

Add in whatever the department will have to pay to the trusts to use the school in the first place

or don’t. Let the students squeeze into the other schools in the areas.

What? So you think we will just squeeze 1,000 kids from Blackrock into the other schools in the area? What sort of effect do you think that will have on the educational outcome for all kids involved - both those who are moved and those who have all the new kids squeezed in beside them?

[Tyler]

I don’t think it is a case of the school closing

There would be an internal approval by Blackrock to cease charging fees and to accept state funding and open up the enrolment/admissions. Admissions policy would change but they could probably still prefer alumni kids and perhaps be given a carve out of the new legislation that may stop that, siblings of students and I would be fairly sure the voluntary contribution would be hefty.
If you look at the two free Irish schools in Donnybrook/Stillorgan you can control who goes to your school and “scholastic aptitude” in various ways without charging fees.

I don’t think things would change as much as people think they would at least not all that quickly.

[Mossy_Heneberry]

UP TO 1,500 staff are at risk of losing their jobs if fee-paying schools join the free education scheme, it was claimed. Ferdia Kelly, general secretary of the Joint Managerial Body (JMB), warned of “major repercussions” if private schools drop fees, including a danger that ancilliary workers privately employed by those schools could be laid off.

That would hit staff like gardeners and maintenance workers.
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According to that study, a private school student costs the Government almost €3,500 less a year than a student in the free education scheme.

independent.ie/irish-news/15 … 21666.html

[FirstBass]

… but none of them will be TUI members, so Labour will be happy?

[FreeFallin]

Heard Ruairi Quinn on the 9pm news last night discussing the new rules for school admissions he’s looking to bring in. He was asked why he was still planning to allow kids get precedence on the basis of their sibling or parent having attended the school. Despite such Labour party pet favourites such as Pavee point and some Immigrant support groups coming oot against it.

He started talking about how important it was to some people for the child to attend the same school as the parent did, how friends of his have made that point to him very strongly. And he understood this as he had attended Blackrock college himself!!!
I was shocked he actually admitted this on TV…and him a ‘Labour’ party minister. I have to admit to having a good laugh after that piece
I can’t get rte player to work for me to get the exact quote he used.

Lets keep elite schools for the elite, generation after generation! That should be Labour’s education pledge at the next election

[Mantissa]

I don’t have a problem with the sibling rule – it makes perfect sense for everyone, especially parents who don’t have to do multiple drops/pickups. The parent rule is crazy of course, but I doubt that will be kept…

[Mossy_Heneberry]

Lets keep elite schools for the elite, generation after generation! That should be Labour’s education pledge at the next election

Instead of dragging good schools down, how about lifting failing schools up?

[slasher]

Lets keep elite schools for the elite, generation after generation! That should be Labour’s education pledge at the next election

Instead of dragging good schools down, how about lifting failing schools up?

That’s separate issue to the legacy/hereditary admissions policy