Nigel Farage:Euro Game is up. Who the hell do you think are?


#121

Nigel Farage: “Nobody believes you…(on the ESM bailout mechanism)”

Au contraire you muppet; plenty believe it. Just because it doesn’t fit in with your panto-partisanism doesn’t mean it doesn’t work.

And still, the Euro fails to collapse? What an obtuse piece of fiat it is. Can’t it see how worthless it is?
But sure - any day now.


#122

+1

I challenge anyone claiming to be “good European” to defend what is being done to the Greek people.

What ever one thinks of Farage’s persona, his highlighting of the human cost of this crisis puts him on the right side of the debate IMO.


#123

An interesting parallel is that those who condemn the EU for being antidemocratic or undemocratic are unlikely to have had real experience of a totalitarian regime.

What’s happening in Greece is not fair to a lot of the Greek people, but with or without the euro, something bad was going to happen. Endemic corruption in tax matters is not compatible with the demands placed on government in a modern society.


#124

It is not such a simple matter. Neither does it help couching the problem in such emotional terms.

No one likes “what is happening” to the Greek people…

There are two articles on the Greek situation that come to mind (that I can’t find). One on the Greek monks and the financial shennanigans they were engaged in. The second on habits and attitudes still prevailing in Greece, such as expression of shock that anyone would work after lunch, or at the least not take a three hour lunch break etc. It would be good to review those articles here to get a better insight into the real problem.

With this there is the general profligacy that is engrained in the society. Why do we not say that “what is being done” to the Greek disenfranchised is a result of this continued profligacy for example?

The fact is Greece should never have been let into the EU in the first place. It is their productive and institutional habits and attitudes, allied with the sense of entitlement they developed during their period of EU membership, that makes this problem so difficult. ie. It is not a result of “what is being done to them” by sinister external forces etc.

In addition, those that make sentimental analogies between money and crack cocaine might think again. Money is not crack. It is something that as adults living in a western society you are expected to handle and use in a responsible way to benefit yourself and your kin and country with an eye to the future and to the value and nature of money. Having that capability is just a part of being grown-up and an adult in our society.


#125

So I’m not being “helpful”? So be it. By the way, we have a whole thread on the Pin dedicated to that kind of phraseology.

You say I’m couching this in emotional terms, then you go on to talk about the “prevailing attitudes” and “habits” of the Greeks as being the real problem. I find that quite disgusting to be honest. Try talking to some Greeks with family back home. You might find that more insightful than the “articles” you reference.

Millions of Greeks are now completely desperate, with no sign of improvement ahead of them. Fact. And, for most, this occurred through no fault of their own. Blaming the corruption of politicians and public sector workers on the “general profligacy engrained in society” sounds like something a bigoted Whig politician would have uttered during the famine.


#126

I do talk to Greeks - mostly those in Greece - about the problem. The problem is due primarily to the short term interests of politicians and public sector workers. In a similar way, similar short term interests caused Ireland’s problems.
There are only 2 solutions outside the current framework I see working:

  1. Either an outside party comes in and fully takes control of Greek society.
  2. They default and live with the consequences, including a drop in living standard of say 75% or whatever guess you want to make.

#127

As I said in my post, no one likes what is happening to the Greek people. That’s a given. Neither do they like what’s happening in Syria, or African babies suffering from famine and war. Or, people suffering from cancer, and then some.

However, intelligent people do not think they can suddenly and immediately solve the problem by pressing a button or issuing a decree. Or turning the money taps on (or off), where it is clear that the core of the problem does not lie in that, and that it may very well exacerbate the problem. Not to mention that it is other peoples’ money in the case of Greece (of German deposit and pension savers in the main).

Yes, you get the ignoramuses who instantly turn on the sentimental self-righteousness and wilful blindness to realities of the situation, and start jerking their knees about (like Farage and yourself). To such people, I say, fuck right off.


#128

How can anyone possibly display this level of lack of self awareness :open_mouth:


#129

I challenged anyone to defend the policy of extreme austerity in Greece. i.e whether it can be condoned (not the same as ‘liked’) and clearly you feel it does on the basis that they had it coming to them. I don’t agree.

Of course, there are huge structural issues to overcome. But we won’t get there by driving desperate people towards political extremism. Lessons from history and all that.
You said the Greeks should never have been let in the Eurozone. That’s irrelevant now. The Eurozone HAS let them in and therefore has a responsibility towards those citizens. The Greeks have a right to expect fair treatment vis-a-vis others in the club whose countries are benefitting from a very weak Euro and abnormally low borrowing costs (2 Year German money is priced at zero coupon).
One can judge any society by how it treats its vulnerable, which is why your comment about Syria and African babies etc is nonsense. Greek citizens are EU citizens and Brussels is responsible, end of.

Play the ball and not the man. Telling me to “fuck right off” doesn’t help gain an upper hand in a debate or compensate for your obvious inability to frame a coherent argument.


#130

Well fine, double their already substantial existing loans and remove the oversight. Make those loans very low interest for good measure. Take even more of a hit on past debts… I think though if such a step is to be taken that the cost of all the above is shared equally among EU countries - precisely relative to GDP and nothing else. I disagree that it is Brussels or the Germans or some others who are “responsible”. It is you and me… Now, if you and others here are set on being so benevolent and hopeful, well I’ll go along with it. Just for the ride. First though, let’s spread the existing already substantial load away from German and Dutch savers onto ourselves, and become accustomed to that. Then, let’s double up, and remove the oversight. Sit back and observe the results of such a grand experiment. Operation hope let’s call it.


#131

Frits Bolkestein


#132

Farage silenced in Bulgaria!


#133

Dismiss Farage at your peril - UKIP are a one-agenda party with lots of bonkers proposals, but there is a LOT of anger out there in the UK at how politicians across the board are ignoring the people. I think they will probably do extraordinarily well in the local elections coming up on 2 May. I think Andrew Rawnsley has caught the mood accurately here:
guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/21/labour-lib-dems-tories-all-beware-ukip

I suspect that the Daily Mail and the Express have been feeding these sentiments. I don’t know where this is all leading, but it’s nowhere pretty, that’s for sure.


#134

thejournal.ie/ukip-local-ele … 2-May2013/


#135

Some interesting symbolism. Here’s an image from the Guardian:


Ukip candidat’s rosette in Basildon, Essex.

Cry ‘God for Sterling, England, and Saint George!’


#136

If memory serves me correctly, UKIP actually started out as a “save the pound” party back in the 90’s, hence the symbol. A very good friend of mine told me this morning that he almost voted for them himself but then he happened to rewatch “The Nazis - A Warning from History” this week and was struck by the similarities between UKIP and the UK today and 1930s Germany and the rise of the Nazi party. Personally, I think that if they didn’t have Ferage they’d be nowhere.


#137

archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.ie/


#138

It’s very much a one-man show at the moment, yes, and from what I’ve read he’s not keen on sharing the limelight with anyone else. The party will have to start pushing forward some other personalities if they’re going to translate the local success into a national presence. A quarter of the vote in local elections could easily translate to zero point zero seats in the next general election.


#139

You could say that about any political movement/party. I wonder would your friend say the same about the ANC or the five star movement party?

Go on ask him.


#140

I doubt my friend could answer that question, I don’t think he would know enough about the ANC or the Five Star Movement or what it’s like to live in South Africa or Italy to say how he would vote in those places.

Farage is obviously an intellgent politican who has a knack for putting his finger on exactly what is the electorate really cares about and I actually don’t doubt his sincerity. The main parties - the Tories in particular - seem totally disconnected from the electorate. However UKIP - like the Nationalist Socialist Party in Germany in the 30s - have a charismatic leader, wildly populist policies that are just impossible to implement or just plain nutty (tax breaks for everyone? bring back foxhunting and smoking in pubs?), some of their members are openly enthusiastic about eugenics, and their main agenda is immigration. Add to the mix a political vacuum in a time of financial crisis and depression, and I would say that the similarities are notable enough to make me feel very uncomfortable.