"perilous embrace of quinn group" - IT

irishtimes.com/newspaper/fin … 76470.html

Excellent article by John McManus

I, for one, would be very interested in finding out - but I guess that makes me a silly capitalist.

You must be misguided… letting capitalist forces prevail is the new socialism!
Capitalism is the new communism but where the common good is replace by the good of the elite :wink:

Good piece, though nothing new to Pinsters.

Major change of attitude from the IT

Has n’t the Quinn Group been technically insolvent for the last few years. Technically as in, any other company would have been declared bankrupt back in 2007.

Provisional administrators at Quinn Insurance

from RTE
rte.ie/business/2010/0330/quinn.html

Holy shit, this is enormous news! Where’s Max Headroom? More to the point, where are his knockers? ( :blush: )

Discuss here please ->

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=29349

Thanks to John McManus’s piece in the IT yesterday, I’m finally starting to see why Anglo is being kept on life-support - consider this scenario:

  1. The plug is pulled on Anglo & the liquidators arrive.
  2. The liquidators naturally go after the €2.8 Billion owed to Anglo by Quinn.
  3. Quinn can’t find the cash and, in it’s turn, folds.
  4. Approximately 1,000,000 policies underwritten by Quinn in this country, including about 400,000 health insurance polices, evaporate into thin air. So 1,000,000 policy-holders suddenly don’t have insurance policies any more.

There is a visceral satisfaction in lashing out at the obvoius guilty parties, but to coin a phrase, ‘we are where we are’. In this vein, all the railing against the perfidious ‘bondholders’ and the desire to see them suffer ignores the fact that many bondholders are Irish pension funds and that it is not anonymous ‘bondholders’ who mostly suffer from large-scale financial disasters but next-door neighbours & mammies & daddies.

By the way, I thought the promissary notes was an unexpected move - I’m no fan but I think that an informed & coherent response, which I hope will include impartial & very public justice, is emerging at last. Engelfield is beholden to no political or civil service master & Appleby over at the ODCE is no push-over either.

Meh.

That’s only one of the “systemic” excuses. Well covered here previously. Also we can assume inter-bank shenanigans, derivative bullshit, FX currency crap, etc.

Quinn’s business can be sold as a going concern for “pennies on the dollar”.

Screw “Too Big To Fail”.

Quinn and Anglo robbed the pension funds - why should I pay?

The problem with that scenario is that the only bit of Quinn that is systemic is now in administration, a move that was always open given past misdeeds. So a cement group, a life business (that should have ring-fenced accounts), a glass company, a property empire, anything else? Anyway, a load of non-systemic stuff is causing the state to stuff 22 bn down the toilet? I don’t think so, it doesn’t pass the sniff test.

Are they holding leprous babies in their arms? Some of them are no doubt nurses and ditch diggers and other ordinary sob-story joes.

Really, the only people who buy corporate debt are the people who know what they are doing, or that should be the case. Anyone still holding it despite the multiple downgrades of the banks is not a well-run pension fund and is probably breaking their own rules.

@ WGO

I apologise if I’m going back over well-trodden ground - I’m a new member. But much to my surprise I’m starting to think that the State’s machinery is finally starting to gear up. Anger as a policy doesn’t work for me. And ‘pennies in the dollar’ doesn’t work for insurance companies - they need reserves so that they can service the policies they have underwritten. Who’s going to buy Quinn -AIG, PMPA ?

@YM

Don’t know where ‘leprous babies’ fit in but €22 Billion over ten years sounds better than €22 Billion tomorrow morning.

I posted a long time ago that Quinn’s insurance division was rotten and ready to come tumbling down. They lasted longer than I believed they would. Quinn will not go quietly into that goodnight. There will be blood on the roof tops. He has been kissed by Judas, but he’s not going to pick up his cross without a fight.

They fit in with the mummies and daddies who bought the Anglo senior unsecured bonds, let me see, nappies, zinc cream for the leprous baby, carrots, senior unsecured Anglo bonds, can’t go wrong with them, methadone, smarties. That should do it.

Quite how you jump from my response to your bonds non-argument back to the promissory notes are a great wheeze nudge, nudge, I don’t know.

They’re an absolutely fabulous wheeze if you want to hobble the public sector for the next ten years.

The state should stay out of it. Either Quinn is a going concern and can be sold on - or should be shut down. Why should the state keep a loss making private firm going? Oh, and where are Quinn’s reserves?

Anger works fine for me - each to his own.

Anglo and Quinn are the epitome of what went wrong with corporate Ireland during the bubble.

All bailing them out does is transfer their debts onto future generations.

Fuck that!

Those responsible go to jail, their corrupt companies fail and the rest of us roll up our sleeves and clean up after the piggies.

EDIT: re: I’m a new member.
Oooops - apologies:

Hi - and welcome!

Agreed. The other insurance companies will pick up the slack. Quinn’s was a failed model anyway. lots of people signed up to their cheap policies, but once they had to make a claim they realised what bad value they were getting and usually jumped ship.

@YM

I can see that this forum has a remarkable resemblance to a pool full of slavering piranhas ! Look, I have no axe to grind but am trying, like everyone else, to make sense of all this stuff.

I would think that most mammies & daddies do not buy Anglo unsecured debt, they pay pension contributions to pension funds. They trust (or did trust) their pension funds to do the right thing. My point was that the unsuspecting masses always get it in the neck in meltdowns. Doesn’t make it any more palatable but I repeat that anger by itself is not a policy.

Judging by recent Zoe-like experiences, if you take out one domino, the whole lot will come down - if one unit of Quinn Group goes, the money says the whole edifice would crash.

PS: ‘Senior unsecured bonds’ sounds like a bit of an oxymoron to me.

I agree
The problem is that the first Dominos were being taken out back in 2006.
The guarantee of Anglo meant that the state would be on the hook for everything.
Our only hope was for the state to wait until the dominos were down and try and pick up what was remaining at a cheap price rather than trying to prop shit up.

@Nimrod
Sorry for the rant. Mad from enduring Kermit Ryan and his muppetonomics.

As I say between ranty moments, the bonds are not, or should not be held by individual pension holders. Who they are held by is ‘commercially sensitive’. Until we see who we are ‘saving’ I want to know that it isn’t a crony sweetheart deal to prop up some speculative vehicle like the Quinn Group.