Pope Francis - Major Change of Direction for Church

Just noticed the Catholic Derailment thread, but think this is worth its own.
This may go down as a major turning point in Catholic history and the wider world.

I think this is very interesting, practically a 180 degree U Turn on the previous 30, 50, 100 years.
How many other leaders in any sphere have the balls for this kind of thing, especially with the Roman/Italian Mafia/Clergy all over him.
Who knows, could even drag back a few lost sheep like myself - or at least I’m going to keep up with what he says.

Pope seeks ‘new balance’ on abortion, women and gays
irishtimes.com/news/social-a … -1.1533942

…He said: “We cannot insist (where Church teachings are concerned) only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods . . . I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that . . . The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time.”

Pope Francis proclaims an end to the Church of small things
The church is “not a small chapel that can hold only a small group of selected people”

irishtimes.com/news/social-a … -1.1533902

IMHO, I think for once, the papacy has elected someone with their feet on the ground.
The church isn’t doing anything radical, just catching up on how society’s values and morals have changed.
Theology has been replaced by practicality.

Society no longer holds much belief in God.
Couple that with the Vatican’s hideously outdated stance on such issues as celibacy, contraception, women and, to a lesser extent, gays, and he can see a rapid decline ahead.

He recognises that, if the institution doesn’t reform, it’s going to die a quick death.

Not only have church attendances fallen, but the median and mean age has shot up.
No young members equals no future.

I think the pope knows that preaching from the pulpit is irrelevant if the congregation can see the hypocrisy from within.

Gandhi is quoted as saying ‘My life is my message’.
Lead by example.
Be the church you want it to be.
So if that church is to be a personification of Christ, then you must act accordingly.
People respect that.

Don’t drink the cool aid.

Or eat the biscuits.

The Popery Pin?

The church has had to yield to the rise of secular societies since the reformation. While the current pope seems socially affable he is still the head of an organisation that once governed society. What role does a church with such a pedigree have if it has no power?

If anything this popes exemplar humility only illustrates that the bureaucratic machinery of the church is useless if all it does is dictate rather than relate.

What would Jesus make of the vatican?

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/arts/yourpaintings/images/paintings/ngs/large/ngs_ngs_ng_32_large.jpg

Hang on, he hasn’t actually signalled any change of direction at all. He isn’t proposing actually changing any of the rules and dogma on priestly celibacy, contraceptives, the role of women or de gays…

…he just wants the Church to stop talking about them all the time and instead spend much more time waffling on about love and charity and fluffy puppies and lollipops…while retaining all their primitive, hate-filled and insane dogmas that they’ve always held…just much more quietly.

In other words the only real difference between this boyo and old Ratzo is that this guy understands PR and media management.

Also, he doesn’t look like Palpatine.

Leviticus 20:13
“If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.”

So Francis is planning to re-write the Bible?

Jaysus, and that’s just for practicing it. Very unfair. How the hell are you supposed to get any good at it?

And some of the other stuff that could get you killed according to Leviticus.

  1.   Burning any yeast or honey in offerings to God (2:11)
    
  2.   Failing to include salt in offerings to God (2:13)
    
  3.   Eating fat (3:17)
    
  4.   Eating blood (3:17)
    
  5.   Failing to testify against any wrongdoing you’ve witnessed (5:1)
    
  6.   Failing to testify against any wrongdoing you’ve been told about (5:1)
    
  7.   Touching an unclean animal (5:2)
    
  8.   Carelessly making an oath (5:4)
    
  9.   Deceiving a neighbour about something trusted to them (6:2)
    
  10. Finding lost property and lying about it (6:3)

  11. Bringing unauthorised fire before God (10:1)

  12. Letting your hair become unkempt (10:6)

  13. Tearing your clothes (10:6)

  14. Drinking alcohol in holy places (10:9)

  15. Eating an animal which doesn’t both chew cud and has a divided hoof (cf: camel, rabbit, pig) (11:4-7)

  16. Touching the carcass of any of the above (problems here for rugby) (11:8)

  17. Eating – or touching the carcass of – any seafood without fins or scales (11:10-12)

  18. Eating – or touching the carcass of - eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, the red kite, any kind of black kite, any kind of raven, the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat. (11:13-19)

  19. Eating – or touching the carcass of – flying insects with four legs, unless those legs are jointed (11:20-22)

  20. Eating any animal which walks on all four and has paws (good news for cats) (11:27)

  21. Eating – or touching the carcass of – the weasel, the rat, any kind of great lizard, the gecko, the monitor lizard, the wall lizard, the skink and the chameleon (11:29)

  22. Eating – or touching the carcass of – any creature which crawls on many legs, or its belly (11:41-42)

  23. Going to church within 33 days after giving birth to a boy (12:4)

  24. Going to church within 66 days after giving birth to a girl (12:5)

  25. Having sex with your mother (18:7)

  26. Having sex with your father’s wife (18:8)

  27. Having sex with your sister (18:9)

  28. Having sex with your granddaughter (18:10)

  29. Having sex with your half-sister (18:11)

  30. Having sex with your biological aunt (18:12-13)

  31. Having sex with your uncle’s wife (18:14)

  32. Having sex with your daughter-in-law (18:15)

  33. Having sex with your sister-in-law (18:16)

  34. Having sex with a woman and also having sex with her daughter or granddaughter (18:17)

  35. Marrying your wife’s sister while your wife still lives (18:18)

  36. Having sex with a woman during her period (18:19)

  37. Having sex with your neighbour’s wife (18:20)

  38. Giving your children to be sacrificed to Molek (18:21)

  39. Having sex with a man “as one does with a woman” (18:22)

  40. Having sex with an animal (18:23)

  41. Making idols or “metal gods” (19:4)

  42. Reaping to the very edges of a field (19:9)

  43. Picking up grapes that have fallen in your vineyard (19:10)

  44. Stealing (19:11)

  45. Lying (19:11)

  46. Swearing falsely on God’s name (19:12)

  47. Defrauding your neighbour (19:13)

  48. Holding back the wages of an employee overnight (19:13)

  49. Cursing the deaf or abusing the blind (19:14)

  50. Perverting justice, showing partiality to either the poor or the rich (19:15)

  51. Spreading slander (19:16)

  52. Doing anything to endanger a neighbour’s life (19:16)

  53. Seeking revenge or bearing a grudge (19:18)

  54. Mixing fabrics in clothing (19:19)

  55. Cross-breeding animals (19:19)

  56. Planting different seeds in the same field (19:19)

  57. Sleeping with another man’s slave (19:20)

  58. Eating fruit from a tree within four years of planting it (19:23)

  59. Practising divination or seeking omens (19:26)

  60. Trimming your beard (19:27)

  61. Cutting your hair at the sides (19:27)

  62. Getting tattoos (19:28)

  63. Making your daughter prostitute herself (19:29)

  64. Turning to mediums or spiritualists (19:31)

  65. Not standing in the presence of the elderly (19:32)

  66. Mistreating foreigners – “the foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born” (19:33-34)

  67. Using dishonest weights and scales (19:35-36)

  68. Cursing your father or mother (punishable by death) (20:9)

  69. Marrying a prostitute, divorcee or widow if you are a priest (21:7,13)

  70. Entering a place where there’s a dead body as a priest (21:11)

  71. Slaughtering a cow/sheep and its young on the same day (22:28)

  72. Working on the Sabbath (23:3)

  73. Blasphemy (punishable by stoning to death) (24:14)

  74. Inflicting an injury; killing someone else’s animal; killing a person must be punished in kind (24:17-22)

  75. Selling land permanently (25:23)

  76. Selling an Israelite as a slave (25:42)

Old testament. You can ignore that shite.

Leviticus is a serious buzz kill.

Re Francis, I don’t expect any revolutionary change, but it is interesting to see that he aspires to greater inclusiveness, whereas Ratzinger was happy with a smaller church.
Of course Francis is just one voice, so what gets transmitted at grassroots level might continue to be divisive and sectarian.

:laughing:

Apparently there is a credible-sounding interpretation of that passage that has nothing to do with homosexuality at all.

Ah, but his is an infallible voice. Mind you, he didn’t say he was speaking infallibly…

The New testament supposedly supercedes the Old. So while pork eating is strictly prohibited in the Old. The New says it’s OK. Leviticus is a set of rules for the Hebrews, presumably Moses got a bad dose of the runs after the seafood buffet.

Without checking I think one of Paul’s letters in the NT prohibit homosexual acts. But there’s nothing about it in the Gospels.

Absolutely right. The whole homesexual thing seemed to be more of a Paul thing as he was preaching amongst some greek cults in which orgies were ceremonial.

Well, I think its huge, a turning point.

It pulls the rug from all the zealots who keep banging on about all these things. He has stated that the church is not about these things, or solely about their opposition.

Correct he’s not changing dogmas, but he has clearly signalled getting away from the hate-filled part - and also becoming more inclusive, sinners and all. Previously it was going down a purist road - church is not a la carte to pick and choose - and purist is not far from zealotry.

There is a slim possibility that the church could actually become Christian! or at least shall not be side tracked by these missions.