Pre-63 Properties and the Potential Impact of Standards


#21

great thread.

PRTB data seems atrocious - means that meta data is weak too - so there will be no analysing it accurately and definitely no policy enforcement. However the charleston avenue

19/20 Charleston Road, Ranelagh, Dublin 6
€1,600,000

  • Detached House For Sale

myhome.ie/residential/brochu … -6/1736219

would seem to be a good proxy - I’ll have a look at it and report back. Generating approx. €130K per year - and for sale say for 1.5K means that pre 63’s are the discounted end of the market?

Does anyone know how long you have to do them up etc and is there any real difficulty in putting them back to single residences in PP.

I reckon if you could pick up these two houses for asking, spend 500K on it - you could have two fine €1.2m houses at todays prices. So price in two years of fall and cost of money - cheeky offer of €1.1m might work?


#22

its all a bit strumpet city, these tenements have no place in a modren society its not london with 10 million people, no easy cash anymore the sooner rent allowence is scaled back the better, 8why should taxpayers line the pockets speculators XX


#23

I rented something with a similar “mezzanine” on Pembroke Road a few years ago and it was AWESOME. It was extremely well-designed and extremely “batchelor-pad-in-the-city”. I miss it.

Don’t know why the new regs would prevent something like that, assuming it was otherwise in good nick.


#24

Many Pre 63 properties will not be able to comply. The requirement for an internal bathroom will not be possible for many of the bedsit flats. There is no possibility of reducing the number of units to provide units which meet the standards. Once the number of units changes the Pre 63 exemption is lost, Planning permission is needed. All that will be allowed is one unit per floor of each house. Many of the properties are protected structures and the conversions would have to be supervised by conservation architects. It simply will not happen.
The buildings will be deconverted to single use. The kitchens will be taken out and residents will have a communal kitchen sitting room and share a few bathrooms. The individual at the lower end of the market will no longer be able to get a self contained unit at a size smaller than one bed which will be unaffordable for a single person. Rents generally will be forced up. The market does not exist in segments. There will be more sharing which will cause asking prices to rise all round. Anything which adds a cost in an industry generally results in that cost being passed back to the customers. The rental market is no different. For many people at the lower end, it might mean living in lodgings as opposed to self catering or else sharing as opposed to self sufficiency. Neither of these options has the security of tenure of a self contained unit.
The market was gradually clearing the poor units out in any case. Forcing these standards through suddenly will cause unnecessary hardship.


#25

If they are sold off to owners then OK, it is just that they cannot be let.

‘Conservation Architects’ are a Giant Green Racket who can fleece you dry and you can’t stop them…for conservation reasons. Once they get on site they can keep on spending ad infinitum. :frowning:


#26

Is there a listing of conservation architects - who are the best - how does an architect get on the list?


#27

If I hinted at the words “Racket” an “An Taisce” perhaps ???


#28

The idea of the new regulations is that there is no pre-63 exemption any more.

Conversion is possible but there is an expense in terms of work and lost income when the property cannot be rented. This expense presumably has to be recovered in the form of increased rents unless the owner mantained a reserve account from past income.

I have to say that I have not seen any flood of such properties on the market so far anyway.

So either they do not exist and conversions have happened or the sales will happen closer to the deadline of 1/2/2013.


#29

I don’t think reducing the units automatically nulls the pre-63 designation.
Granted, if it reverts back to a single-family house then it’s gone, but if a 9 unit house coverts into 3 units, then I think it can still retain it’s special status.

Certainly, if a landlord is forced to reduce the units in order to comply with a new law, then they will have a very strong case in retaining a pre-63 designation.

Regardless, I agree with your ascertain that it is too costly.
The evidence is pointing towards landlords offloading rather than updating, so the argument is all academic anyway.

BTW, there are still quite a few pre-63’s which are (and always have been) compliant with the new laws.
So … they haven’t gone away, you know. :nin

@ jxbr : in comparison to the rest of the market, I think there was an uptick of pre-63’s when the new laws were announced. Or at least the supply remained somewhat constant, as opposed to a tighening elsewhere.
I also agree that we will see an increase in sales closer to the deadline.


#30

The Pre 63 is an exception to normal planning. No development can take place without planning permission. Pre 63 allowed developments to continue which wouldn’t in normal situations have been given planning and also avoided the need for every building existing in 1963 to obtain retention permission. 3 flats cannot be created where there were 9 without planning permission. Even 8 flats cannot be created where there were 9 without planning permission. Many pre 63 declarations were worded as let in flats with no number of units specified. Pre 63 also requires continual use since 1964. There have been may cases concerning quariies and whether they were in continuous use from 1964. There is no question of retaining a pre 63 and at the same time changing the property.
The local authorities have not been vigorous in enforcing the planning code in this area but anyone converting a house should make sure they have planning permission. The property would be virtually unsaleable without proper planning.


#31

Sweat - how likely is one to get planning to convert a pr 63 building to a single family house - if that is what it was originally designed for - but if you buy it before the deadline and before the existing owner has applied for planning?

Do I need to submit plans?


#32

Yes - the RIAI have a list.
To get on it at the basic level, you need to obtain a certificate in conservation. This puts you in at the basic level. More complicated projects, with higher conservation value will have a planning condition requiring that a particular higher grade of conservation person is employed - though it is possible to have that person as a consultant only.
To get from the first grade to the second grade, you need 5 years experience and have completed 5 sufficiently complicated projects, which you present to the RIAI explaining the decisions you made in relation to the conservation issues. You are then interviewed and must justify your decisions.
To get the top grade, you need 10 years experience.

If you have a masters in conservation, you reduce the 10 years to 8 and 5 years to 4.
It takes a long time to get these type of projects to get a sufficiently good portfolio of work - best if you work in a practice that already does conservation architecture.


#33

You are very likely to obtain planning to change to a single dwelling.
I’m not sure I understand the rest of the question.
You will need planning, it is quite likely to be a protected structure.


#34

Sorry, I misinterpreted what you were orginally saying.
I agree with you.


#35

There is an exemption for houses which were previously a single dwelling being reverted from flats to a single dwelling.No planning is needed. The exception is a protected structure which needs planning for all works. The existing owners will not bother with making planning applications in most cases. Many houses have been de-converted quietly and put on the market as single dwellings. Others sell “as seen” with the new owner having to sort out the planning.


#36

#37

You’ve messed up you quotes … I wasn’t the one who said that ! :stuck_out_tongue:


#38

Savills Newsletter

Residential Newsletter September 2012

Multi-unit Pre-63 Investment Properties

What is a pre – 63 property?

To qualify for a Pre-63 Declaration, a property must have been built and rented as bedsits before 1964, the year that planning development regulations came into effect. This is typically qualified in the form of an affidavit provided by the seller. The most common type of pre-63 properties in Dublin are red brick Victorian / Georgian houses which were divided up into traditional bedsits.

The Housing Regulations 2008 Act (Standards for Rented Houses) has updated the 1993 regulations and placed the obligation firmly on the landlord to provide tenants with habitable properties that are structurally sound, well maintained and properly heated.

The implementation of this Act will have major implications for the owners of Pre-63’ / bedsit type properties.

The requirements under the regulations are summarised below:

  1. Structural Condition:

All properties should be in a proper state of structural repair. This means essentially sound, with roof, floors, ceiling, walls and stairs in good repair and not subject to serious dampness or liable to collapse.

  1. Sanitary Fittings:

These should be provided within the habitable area for the exclusive use of the house. This will result in shared bathrooms traditionally provided in bedsits becoming outlawed.

A water closet with dedicated wash hand basin adjacent with a continuous supply of cold water and a facility for the supply of hot water and a fixed bath/shower with continuous supply of cold water and a facility for the pipe supply of hot water.

The shower/bath facilities are required to be maintained in good working order, have safe and effective means of drainage, be properly insulated and secured, have minimum capacity requirements for hot and cold water storage facilities and be provided in a room separated from other rooms by a wall and a door and containing separate ventilation.

  1. Heating Facilities:

Every room used, or intended for use by the tenant of the house as a habitable room shall contain:

Permanently fixed appliance(s) capable of providing effective heating, and suitable and adequate facilities for the safe and effective removal of fumes and other products of combustion to the external air.

The operation of any appliance installed shall be capable of being independently manageable by the tenant. This will result in the abolition of landlord regulated heating systems.

  1. Food Preparation, Storage and Laundry:

Each rented unit should have the following facilities for the exclusive use of that individual unit;

Four ring hob with oven and grill suitable facilities for the effective and safe removal of fumes to the external air by means of a cooker hood or extractor fan.

Fridge and freezer or fridge-freezer and microwave oven.

Sink with a piped supply of cold water taken directly from the service pipe supplying water from the public main or other source to the building.

A facility for the piped supply of hot water and an adequate draining area.

Suitable and adequate number of kitchen presses for food storage purposes.

Washing machine or access to a communal washing machine facility within the curtilage of the building.

A dryer, where the house does not contain a garden or yard for the exclusive use of that house.

All facilities shall be maintained in good working order and good repair, and responsibility for maintenance rests with the landlord. This will result in the improvement of hygiene standards in lower end rental units.

  1. Ventilation:

Every room used, or intended for use, by the tenant of the house as a habitable room shall have adequate ventilation.

All means of ventilation shall be maintained in good repair and working order.

Adequate ventilation shall be provided for the removal of water vapour from kitchens and bathrooms.

  1. Lighting:

Every room used, or intended for use, by the tenant of the house as a habitable room, shall have adequate natural lighting.

Every hall, stairs, and landing within the house and every room used, or intended for use by the tenant of the house shall have a suitable and adequate means of artificial lighting.

The windows of every room containing a bath and/or shower and a water closet shall be suitably and adequately screened to ensure privacy.

  1. Fire Safety:

Each unit shall contain a fire blanket and either a mains-wired smoke alarm or at least two 10-year self-contained battery-operated smoke alarms.

Each self-contained house in a multi-unit building shall contain a mains-wired smoke alarm, a fire blanket and an emergency evacuation plan.

Emergency lighting, linked to the fire alarm system shall be provided in all common areas within a multi-unit building.

  1. Refuse Facilities:

The house shall have access to suitable and adequate pest and vermin-proof refuse storage facilities.

  1. Electricity & Gas:

Installations in the house for the supply of electricity and gas shall be maintained in good repair and safe working order with provision, where necessary, for the safe and effective removal of fumes to the external air.

Summary / Outlook

Landlords with properties requiring major capital outlay in order to comply with the incoming legislation may be reluctant to carry out such work, due in part to the lack of availability of finance and the interruption to their rental income while the refurbishment works are being carried out.

It is expected that many landlords are likely to take a “wait and see” approach to the implementation of the Act, particularly where finances are restricted or they are in negative equity.

According to a recent article in the Irish Independent on the 10th of July 2012 highlighting claims by the Irish Property Owners Association (IPOA) as many as 1,000 rental units may no longer comply with the law after the 1st of February 2013.

If the Act is strictly implemented it is possible that the market will see a significant increase of this type of property coming for sale particularly where landlords have owned the properties since the 70’s/80’s and are not in negative equity. Equally it will reduce the number of units available to rent.

If there is a sudden increase of Pre’63 properties coming to the market in 2013 it is likely to have a negative impact on sales prices. Where landlords opt to sell properties which are non-compliant, prospective buyers will expect the price to reflect the cost of refurbishment and the inconvenience of having no rental income during the renovation period.

Presently demand for pre’63 properties is strong particularly when they are situated in prime locations within Dublin 4 or 6 and are generating approximate gross yields of 10%.

For further information:

Ivan Tuite
Senior Negotiator
Savills Ireland
ivan.tuite@savills.ie
+353 (01) 618 1339


#39

The old boys with no money to spend on renovation are getting out of dodge, plenty examples here -> snipurl.com/24vzuq2


#40

You can search with a keyword on Daft, searching for “pre '63” yields 23 results.

The prices don’t seem very enticing to me in most cases. Maybe the cute old slum landlords are looking to offload to suckers who will look at the present yield and not realise how bad the investment is once they need to do some work on the houses?