Property Tax from the DOLE/Pension/PAYE How would it work ?

Anyone have any experience implementing ?

Note from the bottom of the IMF doc is a good paper.

Sweden and Denmark seem to operate charges off the income tax.

(I implement payroll systems)
Problems with taking the payment out with PAYE:

  • Negative pay scenario. It could be possible that the amount taken out of a payslip is actually more than the net pay. (With UK attachment orders, a minimum amount has to be left for the employee to live on. I can’t see the idiots here taking that into consideration)

  • As mentioned already, who’s liable? Most properties are owned by more than one person. Some of these people might be separated or divorced.

  • How will people who do not get PAYE income pay (like social welfare people, pensioners, farmers, politicians, retired teachers and pharmacists?)

  • The burden of administration falls on the employer. Is this yet another cost that business owners will have to bear?

  • Maybe people don’t actually want to pay? - this could cause people to moan on the internet.

  • How will the systems be put in place in a matter of months? - will payroll systems have to be updated mid-year?

nuts, would this not just be another Revenue-mandated deduction line on the payspli? USC was brought in with 2 months notice IIRC.

I don’t think the mechanics of deducting it from salaries is the problem - the key issue is what state agency is going to have the ability and authority to instruct citizen’s various employers as to who is to have what deductions applied ?

I work closely with the payroll dept. of a large employer here - putting a blanket item into play that will impact all employees is relatively easy compared to the bespoke identification and deduction details required to have this particular charge deducted at source.

Given the foreseeable difficulties regarding establishing ownership and therefore liability for this tax, this isn’t something that can be advised to employers via tax credit info. from Revenue for instance.

Well if your property tax was 400pa (for example) then that’s 7 euro pw, if that puts you into negative pay then you were in major trouble beforehand.
But, there were cases that I know of where this happened and the employer made the relevant adjustments.

Whoever is on the mortgage/deeds and if there’s only one earner then he/she is it.

One minister recently said that these will be self assessed.

Many already do credit unions repayments/budget plans/union subs as well as prsi/usc/paye, I can’t see the burden rising significantly.

Few will want to.

What they are proposing is to introduce it in July next year and look for half a years tax before full implementation in 2014.

It’s a bit more than just line on the Payslip. P60s, P35s as well as payslips will have to change.
There are also a load of other reports (such as control summaries, export to accounts etc) that will have to have this new deduction. I suppose there would also have to be some mechanism for the employer to transfer the funds to the Revenue.

There is also the issue of how the tax will be calculated.
The employer will have to deal with all the problems with too much being deducted etc. They’re not going to like that.

We had just over a year’s notice with cumulative USC. Revenue didn’t come up with a spec until quite late. They are still updating the USC document as of 2 August 2012 (up to version 22) - with retrospective changes. The USC is relatively straight forward compared to the legal complexities of this new tax.

Why are you guys giving yourselves a headache trying to work out a system for the collection of property tax?

We have a highly educated, highly paid public managerial and administrative class in this country.

Let THEM go figure.

Not necessarily. The person might only have started employment and owe close to 400 on their first payslip - if it is to be calculated cumulatively. Plenty more people work part time.
The issue is that it is not a percent of gross pay, or related to gross pay like PAYE, PRSI and USC are. This means that that it is more likely that a negative pay scenario will arise.

Lol! - so people are going to do tax returns where they didn’t have to before, just to pay this new tax :smiley:

I can.
They are going to have to deal with disgruntled employees. In the UK, employers can avail of an admin charge for dealing with AEOs.

Mid year payroll changes are a nightmare. Many people won’t update.

Would unpaid property tax follow the person or the property?

Could someone sell a house with unpaid taxes on it?

Errmm, what has been stated is that you could OPTIONALLY have it deducted from your pay. If you are affected by any of the scenarios above, opt NOT to have it deducted.

2 owners, 2 wages: opt for 1 to have it deducted or just pay in a lump sum.

I don’t really care either way, just pay your damn taxes.

Oooooooo it’s toooo complicated. Jesus Christ.

MY taxes? :question:

I will resist this tax, like I did with its precursor. It’s not MY tax.
(The government forcing people to give their money to people who are richer than them)

It will surely be on the property. That way Revenue know they can eventually collect in the event of sale or probate…

If they are going to try to integrate it into the Income Tax return the obvious thing to do is to adjust the the Personal Tax Credit by the average property tax value. Let people argue about it afterwards.

Although that would mean a negative tax credit for landlords !

I believe they want to get it deducted from salaries if people opt to do so OR if people don’t pay online themselves.

I don’t see the need for the hassle of allowing it to be deducted from salaries unless it helps them fix the bigger problem of non-compliance. Introducing an opt-in version of the payment via PAYE doesn’t solve a problem, so I don’t think that’s what they’re doing.

Not sure what the big deal is - lots of taxes in Ireland are self-assessment
Pay you tax or don’t pay it. If you don’t pay and get caught you get hit with a whopper of a fine and penalties and interest and maybe prison. Why should property tax be different?

Of course 1,000 a year is a lot but 19 euro a week is optically nicer so allow an opt in system to pay it through salary deduction.

I doubt it will be voluntary ! Even the IMF Paper mentions this … the low compliance with the household charge is the reason.

low compliance with household charge is in large part because the penalties for non payment are very small

compliance with second home charge because penalties are a lot greater

You are going into a different issue there - arrears. The issue is that they want the money and they can be very resourceful in these matters.

SW will be easy enough - deductions and self employed already self assess do they not?

Disgruntled employees? They can direct them to the next ballot box. It’s nothing to do with the employer.

They’ll have to. As others have said, it’ll be easy enough to implement, there’ll be a few hiccups along the way but for the most part it’ll be easy enough.

It matters not a fcuk how it gets paid the issue is that the government is extorting money from the populice, calling it a “property tax” - despite the fact that none of the revenue generated therefrom will go towards property services - you already pay for your bins, water likewise will be charged in the near future, roads come out of motortax etc. most of the services to your property are already charged out, likewise when you attempt to build a new unit the various councils will use their ability to veto same as a valid reason to extort as much money as they can from you in the form of financial contributions, access to services, water tappings etc. Then there’s stamp duty.

I would be more likely to pay it if they described it accurately - “croke park tax”.

If an opt-out is possible - and I don’t see how it won’t be - expect a large campaign to encourage everyone to get on to their payroll department to opt out. How ridiculous will the government look when, for example, more than half of the HSE have opted out despite being homeowners? The Civil Service? Revenue?

I simply don’t think this is going to fly. EUR100 didn’t, what chance multiples of it, regardless of the fines/charges imposed?

Has anyone even been fined/prosecuted for the non-payment of the existing charge? What if I don’t pay the existing one, but sign up to this one - will I get away with it?