After perusing yet again the likes of daftwatch, property vultures, et al. (highly appreciated resources btw), I am again left trying to understand why actual closing sale prices are not made publicly available as they are in the U.S. Isn’t the current situation, with nearly every other FTB over the past few years haplessly waking up to negative equity, and the banks quaking on the edge of failure, ample enough reason to change this “hide the ball” policy? I’d welcome a collection of the best reasons not to make this information available to the public. Anyone? Anyone? … …
Surely this has to be known by the Revenue Commissioners as they would have to know what Stamp Duty on the Sales would have to be paid. How else would they establish this. Or would the Solicitorw Drawing Down the Loans or Paying out the money to the Sellers Stamp Duty. Also the VAT on the Auctioneers Fees would have to be known by the VAT Collection Services. The Sales Figures would have to be in a lot of places. At the Auctioneers, At the Solicitors, At the Banks, At the Revenue, At the Stamp Collection Data. At the VAT on Sales. Aslo the purchasers Stamp Duty Charges.
I’m confident the prices are known to some, but why not made available to all?
There is no excuse, the Revenue should make the facts known no more than 3 months later and by region …eg about 3 counties in a region .
Have there been failed attempts to get a law passed?
See this article irishtimes.com/newspaper/pro … 48049.html
Last part of article, raises the issue and it has been raised a few times recently.
Thread here viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21551
I agree “enough of this shite” prices are only hidden to manipulate the market for the benefit of the few to the deteriment of the many. Time to reverse this as its typically Irish (morally corrupt) and should be stamped out immediately.
I think one of the things we need to know is who is it helping and I dont buy this data protection privacy shite.
Who stands to gain most by price manipulation, EAs? Naw dont gain enoughon their own. Developers? Have a lot to gain certainly in new developements and from shoebox apartments. CIF? high prices and a stupid public keep their members happy.
Land owners? Helps them justify huge prices for tracts of developement land.
Am I painting a picture for you?
Now that lack of transparency in the market is extending the bust, I wouldn’t be surprised to see them change their tune.
In about ten years.
Not in a crash. If prices are not known then the crash will fall further than they would normally as it will be impossible to determine the bottom.
This may be the reason some estate agents and auctioneers are now squawking about showing prices. Although I may be giving them waaaaaay too much credit here.
Oh and in the event of competing bids, a potential purchaser should be able to view evidence of competing bids.
I have to say I disagree to a point BB, if people know a house sold for say 300K which was say 500k a year ago they are likely to hold back from buying to see how far the market will fall before committing. But if people dont know what houses are selling for then they are using asking prices minus a percentage and the shite from the EA to guage how much to offer.
I think the EAs on the other hand know they have to try something, are trying to cry foul (pot calling the kettle black) to get some movement in the market but the public wouldnt trust them as far as you could spit one.
People just dont trust these f***ers anymore and I hope the whole market freezes up until selling prices are made public as an incentive for the government to get off thier arses and try a dose of honesty.
There’s an information edge to the Estate Agent if he knows what prices are being achieved and the buyer doesn’t.
That information edge is why the practice continues.
Whether it’s a pro or a con in the falling market is almost irrelevant, personally I think the market is shagged one way or another,
and the information edge to the estate agent still exists. In any negotiation anything you know that your opponent doesn’t
gives you an edge.
Why has there never been any real pressure to change this?
Do you need to ask?
Remember that buyers and sellers exist ONLY to serve the needs of the estate agents, developers etc.
Just like voters exist ONLY to elect politicians.
Once you understand that you’re serving them rather than the other way around, all these silly rules
Interesting piece–from the article…
Are auctioneers really hoping that they will be demanded to put sale prices into the public domain? And is it really the case that a consumer protection effort is the reason that consumers don’t have access to the prices? …Is down really up?
I think that a public database of house prices from the Revenue data, has been discussed for some time. The UK have it for a few years now. The NCA thing is only, from what I can gather, about stopping EA’s from claiming in the press that a house sold for so much, while not printing proof, so some had been inflating the sales price data, and vendors and buyers alike had complained.
The EA’s are now asking, along with one of the valuers or surveyors bodies, and a few other places, for the data to be made public because it helps the market on the way down as well as on the way up. Transparency really is in everyone’s interests.
houseprices.co.uk/ it’s that easy, and nobody got hurt
what is the problem with this country?
While I agree that such information should be available to the public, the reasons why it is not are:
- the default position is that there is no system in place for such information to be made public
- this means that a body with clout could make such information available
- the bodies that could do this are the government and estate agent representative bodies
- the estate agents are not going to release this information as it would be a breach of their client’s confidence. So unless they are forced to, they will not readily release this information
- their clients could consent to releasing this information, but unless they are asked to do so and given a good reason to do so they won’t. Since the estate agents don’t particularly want such information made public, they don’t ask for their client’s consent
- the government have never had the political will to make such information available, and when pressed the side which favours data protection of the individuals has won
- thus, it is not that the information is hidden, it’s just that there has never been a concerted effort to make it available.
Weak I know, but it’s more an omission than a deliberate effort to hide the figures IMO.
I ‘came home’ in 2003, I had left here at a very young age as my parents were looking for work. Grew up in Canada, and have travelled extensively most of the known world (not flying, on a motorbike!) I’ve seen it all and then some.
Coming here in '97 to try find my folks a place, I was absolutley stunned at what I found. The archaic closed doors system of listings and the attitude of the property agents absolutley shocked me. what really enraged me was that the people of Ireland, my country, my people, just seemed to accept it all as normal. I left late in '97 travelling to africa, all of russia, asia, australia, nz, and the americas.
In 2004 after living here a year and really seeing what was happening here, I started telling people, this stuff is going to crash. everybody told me i was a miserable basterd ( maybe i am ), I had a terrible time with the banks for any kind of a loan, despite them throwing money at any big price homebuyers, and despite those stupid adds with the students, you rememebr those? I was REFUSED a 90% mortgage on a home BECAUSE THE HOME VALUE THAN 100,000 EUROS! << BOI policy…shocking, they actually discouraged sensible buying.
To the present:
What this country desperatley needs to restart confidence in the property market is:
- Total transparencey to the public on all figures.
- MLS ( multiple listing system ) listings so EVERY agent has EVERY home in the country available for the purchaser to mull over- their commission is kept by listing agent when listing agent sells, split 50/50 when one agent lists but another sells. This gets rid of the dredge of having to visit so many agents.
- Contractual non-retractable offers that MUST be filled out by agent regardless of ‘his opinion’ on the buyers offer, and MUST BY LAW be presented to the vendor, with a stipulated accept/ decline time limit indicated ( ie. 24, 48 or 72 hours)… acceptance or decline must be returned signed by vendor!
- Pre-approved mortgages to enable buyers to look and bargain more effectively.
- Options of monthly, bi-weekly, or weekly payments (enabling paying down principal earlier)
- Banks must provide amortization tables, and online amortization calculators for all loans, most especially including mortgages (I was shocked about the lack of this, canadian banks had 25 years ago).
Leadership are like sheppards, put in place by vote, in trust to guide ‘the sheep’, the people, who need not concern themselves with having to learn everything, trusting in their sheppards to guide them.
Our sheppards have mistaken us for lemmings, running us off the edge of a cliff.
They are not sheppards, they are pied pipers leading us like rats to our doom.
The leadership of this country has grossly failed the people of Ireland.
Its time for solid and honest changes in this country.
The quicker we make these changes, the faster the market will adjust to level, and we can all ‘get on with it’.