Quality of 'Pin going downhill


Long time lurker, first time poster.

Going slightly off-topic here but please bear with me.

I’ve been a regular browser of this website pretty much since the split from askaboutmoney. Like many people who view these pages I’ve never felt the need to post a message or even register for that matter. I’ve only had internet access at work and didn’t have the time to respond.

So why now?

A few reasons really;

Primarily to moan about the standard of debate, what little there is. This site used to be thought provoking and insightful but has gone downhill so much. I think the Pin has become a victim of it’s own success (Politics.ie has suffered a similar well documented decline). Also I’m aware of the irony of that sentence so I’ve saved you a riposte. I think everyone is in agreement now - prices are going down so there’s little to debate. My own opinion is that Propertypin has become bloated with 20-somethings who want to get on the property ladder but can’t, so gather here where they congratulate themselves on being so clever for not buying in the first place. OK then, well done. You do realise that many of you are as much a vested interest as any banker, auctioneer, TD and estate agent you so frequently demonise?

The manner in which people who don’t fall in with the Pin mantra are ridiculed is a real shame. My least favourite moniker which is oft repeated here is ‘sheeple’. Basically someone not like you. The level of smugness here is off the chart. Where is the anti-glee policy that used to be enforced?

I also want to critise the frequently erroneous posts which report opinion as fact. Seldom anything that would stand up to any primary school level analysis. Perhaps it the haste at which they are constructed - it may go some way to explaining the high post count of many here. Do any of you guys work for a living? Seriously, how long do you spend on here?

To give an example of the calibre of poster here I wish to quote Igy. I’m not deliberately picking on you Igy - I could trawl through any thread on this site and easily pick someone else!!

Igy wrote:
Yeah, but the average worker doesn’t need a 3 bed.
They need a 1 bed, and would be happier with a 2 bed.

(that said, if 950 would get me a 3 bed, i’d SO be there )

No you wouldn’t SO be there (Are you posting from LA?). As someone who has recently moved from an apartment to a house I can confirm that it’s not so clear cut. My apartment in Dublin was electrically heated with a monthly ESB bill of around €40. My 3-bed semi-d in Belfast, which I rent, costs £40 stg per month in NIE payments and I have paid just under £1000 stg in home heating oil since January (granted it wasn’t a patricularly efficient boiler but oil prices have skyrocketed!) Have you thought about this?

My own two pence worth.

Prices are going down - yes.

Rents going down (back on topic) - yes but nowhere near to the extent they are predicted here. My specialist area of knowledge is Dublin 8 and demand is still high from what my friends are telling me. See I have anecdotal evidence too. For you information I was paying the same rent in 2003(D4) as I was in 2008 (D8) for the same size apartent.

Ballsbridge (as mentioned by beattie) is not that good a place to rent. Dublinbus infrequent and unreliable, the amenities are pretty poor and it’s a brisk 35/40 minute walk into town. The Ice-bar was the nearest bar to me and it’s awful.

In closing, less time posting, more time living. It’ll sort itself out in the long run with/without our help. Put down the computer - meet a friend for a drink and a meal. Enjoy yourself.

No doubt I’ll get lambasted here but to be honest I probably won’t respond.



Man, it’s funny to get all the usual arguments thrown together into one post…

As for your VI allegation, laughing my fucking ass off mate, if anyone thinks that argument carries any weight well then you are disproportionately attributing the weight of a single user on the interwebs versus a well oiled PR machine that has thrown oodles of cash at all the traditional media… Ask Richard Delevan if he thinks VIs are really small time interwebs users or something much more sinister.

Anti-glee policy is still enforced, VOLUNTEER moderators cannot be everywhere at once, if you see something you don’t like report it!

Outside of that, I don’t think a post like this contributes very much to the debate, either get in and get your hands dirty on a few threads or simply don’t log on, this is not an entertainment channel!!! It’s a fecking forum and only can be the sum representation of the users views…

Nothing more and there is no duty to entertain or be insightful, perish the thought, most of our posters wouldn’t have a post left in them at that rate…

I didn’t even read this bit! And you’re talking about the level of smugness being off the chart?!? Cop yourself on pal! :unamused:

OK so. I suspect you’ve posted before because your posting style reminds me of someone else, but maybe that’s only my own paranoia.

Firstly you’ve dragged up the same old shite about this site being populated by 20 somethings who are all living in their mothers attic. We’ve comprehensively dealt with this previously and there is a mix of property owners and non property owners on this site. If you’re going to let stereotypes cloud your judgement that’s your problem although I suspect it’s probably a more subtle attempt to ridicule the forum.

As for the substantive point yes the standard of debate is probably lower because the key issue in the debate has largely been dealt with and one “side” has won. The bulls have left the site and returned to AAM where they can indulge their fantasies about the ex council houses they bought in Finglas being worth 600 grand. Debate is not as fierce because the bearish “side” has proven to be absolutely and utterly correct, that’s not the fault of posters on the Pin. In time I’m sure the debate will re-ignite as some of us begin to see house prices approach what we consider fair value and we turn bullish on property.

If you want to know what’s happening in the real world, join in the discussions here and post your opinions and prepare to be challenged if they prove controversial. If you’d rather not care about property or economics go somewhere else. For most of us, property prices and their impact on the economy is of huge bearing for our financial (and sometimes mental) health. Anyone who didn’t follow the discussions here and bought a house last year is sitting on a huge loss to their financial health. A first time poster who decides to post sanctimonious drivel urging people on a forum to behave in a certain way is only going to piss people off.

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
I love these guys. They make the Pin what it is. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

a ridiculous post in itself but like all things SHEEPLE has one thing to SO redeem it 8DD

An ‘Apartent’ … great term Im going to use that…can we add that to the Pin Glossary…
meaning a shoebox in D8 with paper thin walls , poor insulation and you sit around in your sleeping bag drinking flagons…

Do you think you’re from LA, BostonorBerlin?


Frank and TUG both have points. But there is a sense of fatigue and frenzy in the forum. As more and more people search for reasons and find the pin while trawling the net for a way to keep their hair, we can all see a few potential peeks of pin referral over the next year and the need to keep the point sharp. Those being USA election effect, year-end tax return results, the second budget, local/European elections and Lisbon 2 (why have one if you can have two for twice the price).

Everyone gets stuck looking at a few sites and letting loose here is one of the few legitimate ways left in the bubble wrap nation when mammy has her eye on ya. I for one, current post excepted, will be searching for the contrary and reading a little wider.

Artwork is suppose to improve during a recession, something about more time to express greater angst. Maybe the pin is turning into a form of social art :mrgreen:

“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”
Mahatma Gandhi

No… but I dont but frank_k thinks everyone who uses that term is…

What a brilliant tag for a longtime unresponsive lurker … frank_K… like the Oirish cross of Franz_Kafka and the charachter Josef K from The Trial…
You did ask for it …

I kind of agree with some of franks points. The main thrust of the pin was always as a counterpoint to the likes of AAM. More and more, bar the perma/fantasy bulls, much the same advice is given there as here. Saying that, I think the pin has peaked recently and spectacularly, especially with the protest and the eu competition submission about HCL. The views expressed on the pin are mainsteam positions now. A lot of the long term posters on here have been way ahead of the curve, and it really is only in the last few months that the pin mantra has become the accepted wisdom of the day.

The budget has really brought into sharp relief to everyone just how bad a crowd are in government. They really dont have a clue, and as important as house prices are to us, they are not as important as jobs, health, school children and dealing as best we can with depression/recession. There are still some great threads, particularly the confident in cape verde one, which, it has to be said was again ahead of the curve, seeing it for the scam it will surely turn out to be.

The pin has been great, it may continue to be great, but it is turning into a bit of a reverse AAM, with ultra bearish advice which is little more than wishful thinking. Nobody has a crystal ball, there is no absolute right or wrong advice on what people should do based on a very very uncertain future.

The pin has saved a lot of people money, serious life-affecting money, and heartache. It challenged conventional wisdom, in a scientific and analytical way, and served as a counter point not only to the likes of AAM but to the well oiled VI PR machine which spouted absolute horseshit on a regular basis and was unquestioned in the main stream media. The worm has turned, and now many a property related article in the main stream media quotes the pin (tips hat) or just plain rips off an idea and explores it(shakes fist). Our message got out, and was there were people bothered to look. Now, more and more users are coming to the site and people are angry, or smug or bewildered or desperate. They are all different and we don’t control what they say. If you think the pin is bad, go to a more popular site such as boards.ie accomodation forum or daft discussions and see what poor quality advice really is. I for one welcome our new pin overlords, yore ma etc etc. Karlos.

I also agree that the pin is in danger of turning into politics.ie, a victim of its own success which after 18 months of reasoned debate, attracted too many tin-foil hat wearing loonies. Once the moderate posters left, it left the extremes of a one-sided argument to canabalise each other. politics.ie now unrealable.

just yesterday a poster started a new thread on the notion that he could see no argument whatsoever why property prices won’t drop 90% across the board. Queue usual nonsense debate.

i really like TPP, a great source of both information and interesting speculation. But I’d also happily live without it. Please don’t let the 3am-posting loonies ruin it :wink:

Hey, this site was founded by tin-foil hat wearing loonies -

  • property crash
  • peak oil
  • ISEQ->3000
  • global financial meltdown

What do you think these things were two and more years ago?

I was referring to politics.ie :wink:

Frank, you’ve got to be kidding.

As YM points out, a lot of stuff discussed on here over the past few years would have been classed as “loony” at the time (there are probably some threads similar to this buried throught the pin).

If I hadn’t read the 'pin I wouldn’t have gotten out of the property market when I did - if they people that had bought my house had read the pin, they wouldn’t have gotten in when they did!

It’s been an invaluable education for me as it gathers together info that is outside the mainstream press that I wouldn’t have the time or skill to locate. As a result, I sat at dinner with someone (a big 4 accountant) and told him the system was broken and he laughed at me. A few weeks later, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Lehman, AIG all failed. When I tore into the HCL scheme the other night, he didn’t say a word.

Some threads might seem a bit off the wall, but so what - at least they are provoking some debate. Your solution seems to be to tell us that we are all pasty faced kids and should get out more (you do sound a little like Maka1…). I’m in my mid 30’s, two kids, equity firmly in the bank, looking to buy a good house in a good area.

I welcome people with your opinions into the discussion. We have lost most of the bulls here over time (2Gaffs and a few others spring to mind), and I sense that you are a bull or what passes for one these days (rents are sticky, they are, I’m telling you, it’s all right where I own etc etc).

I think everyone here owes frank an apology for not writing the types of posts he wants to read while lurking.

Hey, 2Gaffs was here at the weekend! Being a little bit evasive, but here nonetheless.

Was he? Good on him. Haven’t seen nonbeliever in a while…

Some of Franks criticisms are justified but I think in the short time I’ve been on the pin the standard has actually improved.I think to the occasional visitor,periods of torpor may exist for what seems an eternity,where economic and political events seem to slow to almost a halt and this can lead to sloppy/trivial postings,which may have their own merit and provide amusement, but to some may appear a deviation from what people like Frank see as the role of the PIN.This is especially true in the area of house prices themselves,since there is absolutely no way to gauge the falls in the market other than sites such as Daft asking prices,this leads to endless speculation as to the extent of real falls in prices,and makes commenting on the state of the market and future falls little more than speculation itself.

To me,the level of knowledge of complex issues involving economics and banking displayed by posters and the sheer quality of both the research (and what may even be called “journalism” since some of the posters are extremely well educated) is extraordinary (naturally I exclude myself from the above).This has,I think being recognised by others in the media,and the PIN is being referred to more and more in articles in the mainstream press.

So yes Frank,you may have a point,but compared to the usual run of the mill forums that often descend into a forum for trading personal insults, the PIN really does stand above the rest.