Rental:Part 4 tenancy disagreement with EA

Hi, just coming to end of one year lease. Sent letter to landlord/ agent stating plan to stay on/ part 4 tenancy.

Agent rang me asking me to sign another one year lease- I explained I wanted to proceed with part 4 tenancy. Agent said I could not because I “didn’t sign a part 4 tenancy lease” or some other waffle. I argued that it states on citizensinformation that:

"Under Part 4 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004, if you have been renting for at least 6 months and haven’t been given a written notice of termination, you automatically acquire security of tenure in 4-year cycles. Any tenancy, therefore, that has lasted more than 6 months is a ‘Part 4 tenancy’

Now, my landlord is happy for us to stay but seems to want me to sign some sort of contract (do part 4 tenancies require any paperwork/ another contract). I’m expecting the agent to ring me shortly requesting once again that I sign a one year contract.

What do you reckon I should do?? I want the flexibility of 6 weeks notice to leave that a part 4 tenancy would bring and do not want to sign a one year contract even if I don’t plan on moving in the short term.

Thanks for any advice!

I had something similar when invoking a part 4 tenancy. My agency, one of the country’s leading and most “respected” agencies :unamused: , told me they didn’t do part 4 tenancies. I explained that it was irrelevant if they did them or not I was legally entitled to one.

You need to write a formal letter to the agency detailing that you now want to start a part 4 tenancy.

Also give PRTB a ring - they will tell you immediately whether or not you need to sign a new “Part 4 Tenancy” type contract. I have found them really good at answering these type of questions. Do not sign a new 1 year lease no matter what clauses are included. When my agent realised the “we don’t do them” route wasn’t going to work they tried to get me to sign a new 1 year lease with get out clauses. I asked them why would I do that if I could just use the part 4 tenancy???

I’m not sure what the problems are with agents and part 4 tenancies. I think it may have something to do with them getting the 1st month’s rent upfront as a fee when a 1 year contract is signed?

BTW the agency finally copped and I’m now on a part 4 tenancy.

Agreeing to sign a new fixed term lease is a good way to negotiate a rent drop.

Anyway, yes you are entitled to a part 4, you are being taken for a ride.

part 4 tenancy is worthless.
landlord can evict you on a whim and claim he needs to renovate or move in a family member which cannot be disproved.

if you want to continue a tenancy you’re better off signing a real fixed duration lease than taking invoking this implicit and useless lease.

Ignore the agent and continue on your part four. Don’t sign a fixed term lease as you never know when you have to leave. The landlord can boot you out but only if the reason is genuine and it is possible to prove (adds showing him reletting, call to new tenants and say they have to register wtih PRTB. Lots of tricks).

This is not strictly speaking true. He must give you legally mandated periods of notice and if he neither renovates nor moves in a family member nor sells (which is one of the other reasons he can end a Part VI) you can make a formal complaint to the PRTB.

As far as Ireland is concerned, however, the legally mandated period of notice is worth its weight in gold. Most fixed terms leases in my experience do not provide for any break clause and landlords have an apoplectic fit if you ask for one in a fixed term lease. This has not prevented landlords giving me 2 weeks and 10 days notice in the past. As far as I can see, a lot of landlords in Ireland think leases dictate the tenants’ obligations but do not apply to landlords at all. In that respect, the notice periods provided for under Part VI are useful to most tenants when fixed term leases don’t allow for break clauses.

Part 4 offers no protection. The landlord can simply write a letter saying he ‘intends’ to carry out renovation and the tenant must leave. Theoretically, the tenant should be offered a tenancy post renovation but renovation may take any amount of time and in practice the tenant will have entered into a new lease agreement elsewhere and this right of a renewed tenancy would require a court order for enforcement. I have seen many cases of tenants being turfed out and zero cases of the tenancy being resumed. Another option is for the Landlord to transfer tenancy to his brother who in turn sublets the property to a stranger.

read all about it: irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/ … c0034.html

This law was designed to look like tenant protection but to be unenforceable. Or else it was designed by stupid people. Take your pick, same result.

The usual reasons for a LL throwing out a tenant early are: late payment of rent, parties/complaints from neighbours, too many people living in property, rent has fallen below market rate and LL has no balls to discuss with tenant, tenant complaining about minor issues that other tenants might look after themselves.

There are various methods of rapid eviction along the lines of faked h&s emergencies while the part 4 tenant is out of the property.

Part 4 offers you no protection at all which is why I have a multiyear lease with prearranged rent reviews on my rented home which cannot terminate early unless by mutual consent.

If the landlord says they are carrying out a renovatation then tehy cannot relet the house. Why would they lose months of rent just to spite an old paying tenant? If they attempt to relet then they can be caught and fined heavily.

DAFT rental ads do not require full addresses. Property can be re-advertised and shown during ‘renovation’. Vacant periods of 1mth/year are par for the course in Ireland.

I’d catch any landlord out if they pulled a trick like that. Trust me, there are lots of ways to build a case against them.

Happy for you. However a lease which cannot be terminated except by MUTUAL consent is a fixed term lease without a usable break clause and as a tenant, I’d actually want a break clause.

As noted above, too many fixed term leases come without them.

Like I said it appears that agents have a problem with Part 4 tenancy and do their best to avoid entering into one. Is it because of the up front fees, Mr Agent? Genuine question.

Most landlords couldn’t be bothered gettting rid of a decent tenant once the part 4 tenancy is in place and the rent is being paid etc. It’s the agents who appear to be creating hassles with them. You can argue all you want about part 4 tenancy not protecting the tenant but if a tenant wants one he is entitled to it.

A lease is a contract drawn up by mutual arrangement. You can put whatever you agree in there. Up to you to negotiate.

I agree that few residential tenants in Ireland are willing to commit to a long tenancy or to agree to carry out maintenance. Landlords for their part in Ireland are disinclined to allow long tenancy, or to permit subletting.

alex_a, part 4 tenancy is automatically entered into after 6 months- it’s not a choice by the landlord or agent.
–edit–
agents make money in 2 ways from tenancies: finder’s fees and management charges. these fees vary depending on the scope of work involved but 8% of annual rent for each would be common. finder’s fees include reference vetting, inventory, viewings, arranging ads, utility transfer.

many landlords will attempt to manage the property themselves, or find tenants themselves.

as tenancies often change annually, finder’s fees are a great regular income for agents. smart landlords negotiate lower fees in later years.

Most landlords do not care if a tenant has a Part 4 or fixed term lease once the first 12 month rental period is over.

EA care because if they get the tenant to sign another lease they might be able to charge the landlord an additional fee.

Personally I don’t insist on a new 12 month lease (unless tenant requests) but do re-negotiate the rent. Over the last 6 months rents have been increasing.

On a practical note when dealing with waffle like this on the phone a good tactic is to ask for things in writing and if necessary refuse to deal with them until you receive written confirmation of their position.

It’s one thing to spin some BS in a easily deniable phone conversion, quite another to put the same in writing.

I do believe this kind of thing is standard procedure for the agencies, I remember getting a call telling me that my lease was up and that I needed to sign a new one. There was one small problem though, I had moved out of the apartment a couple of months previously.