Residency benefits of investing in Ireland


#18

I’m not looking for a receptive audience. I’m just giving the policy and the law as it is. Whether people like it or not is irrelevant and if there’s disrespect being bandied about, it is those who mock the board members of the Hibernia REIT. This thread is an off-shoot of the initial REITs thread (which still exists) and you’ll be able to glean who’s disrespectful and who isn’t on that.

I don’t understand the point you’re making in the second paragraph. There are many Chinese people who are anxious to get their money out of China. I know this because they’ve told me. For those who are very wealthy or know the right people, there are no restrictions on the amount of money you can transfer out of your bank account. For most people, you are allowed to transfer $50,000 per account per year. That is why many Chinese people who are buying property in Ireland will transfer funds from many different accounts into the one account here.


#19

I thought the law and policy was about to be clarified. If the H REIT was the only way to get these benefits, fair point. If not, you are just trolling and get lost.

HQ trolling though I must say.


#20

There will be a new policy and investing in REITs will be one aspect of the policy. I think it’s the most interesting aspect given the various points which I have raised heretofore. I expect a sharp upturn in the numbers investing to get residence permits but I guess time will tell.

Also, I saw an ad on RTE 1 this evening for a programme on Monday night called “Who’s buying Ireland?” or something like that. It’s about various overseas investors and there’s a clip of one of them holding up his Irish passport. I don’t know what type of investment their engaging in but I assume there’s a property element to it.


#21

I heard that anyone who buys into a REIT from next year gets a free back rub from Joan Burton and a year’s parking in Leinster House. Can’t tell you where I heard it though. Time will tell.


#22

Are you seriously suggesting that people will be entitled to apply for citizenship without having resided here? The citizenship law was changed a decade ago to require all applicants for naturalisation to have lived in Ireland for 3/5 years first. If that requirement is waived for some, based purely on investing €500k, while still being enforced for those with close Irish ties (e.g. with Irish citizen spouse and kids) then I predict a strong backlash.

That is most certainly not true, at least for Russia. There is no restriction on Russian citizens obtaining a second citizenship and their right to do so is even specifically protected by law. There are literally millions of Russians with second passports. (Bulgaria, Latvia, Cyprus, UK, US and Israel are popular choices)


#23

That is actually the policy as it stands. The new policy will include REITs as investment vehicles which enable the investors to get the residence permits. However, to address your point, the policy that allows people to apply for citizenship after five years without actually living here has been in place since April 2012. Five years of residence permits will be required before the citizenship application can be made.

As regards Russia, see The Federal Act of Citizenship of the Russian Federation 2002. Russia does not recognise dual nationality. However, Russian nationals can change passports coming in and out of the country so you’re right about the many Russians living in Europe with EU passports. Dual nationality is not officially recognised, however.


#24

Many countries, including the US, do not recognise dual nationality. That does
not mean their citizens have any legal impediments to obtaining dual nationality, just that they can’t claim the benefits of the other nationality while in their home country.

Basically, you’re making stuff up.


#25

Nah. Read what I wrote. There are people who might invest who don’t want to obtain Irish passports because their governments won’t allow them to have them. That remains the case for Russians I’m afraid.

The point I was making is that the REIT investor has the option of remaining here with a residence permit if they don’t want to get an Irish passport.


#26

Can you provide a source for the part in bold please. The current published procedure for acquiring citizenship by naturalisation requires you to demonstrate that you were both entitled to be here (GNIB stamps) and were actually here (utility bills, work records, school enrolment for kids etc.). Are you saying there is some secret procedure for ‘special categories’ that waives this requirement?

Yes, that’s the law that says a Russian citizen cannot be disadvantaged or discriminated against because he holds another citizenship. Russians nationals not only can change passports coming in and out of the country but they must change passports coming in and out of the country because they can only enter and leave Russia on their Russian passports. That is because Russia does not recognise dual citizenship but that is not even close to being the same thing as saying Russia prevents its citizens from obtaining a second citizenship. Russia doesn’t give a damn how many passports its citizens have but it will only deal with its citizens on the basis of their Russian citizenship. In practice all this means is that if someone who holds both Russian and US citizenship has issues with the Russian authorities they cannot avail of US consular assistance within Russia because Russia will refuse to engage with US consular officials on what it sees as an internal matter involving a Russian citizen.

That is completely untrue. As I’ve said above the Russian government does not give a damn if you get another passport as long as you don’t try to use it within Russia.

As Mantissa has said you are just making this up.


#27

Jesas, the government really doesn’t want people to invest in REITs :slight_smile:

However the parking would be handy.


#28

inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/New%20Programmes%20for%20Investors%20and%20Entrepreneurs

See the part where the scheme discusses “multi-entry visas”. Thats’ Department-speak for allowing the applicant to travel wherever and whenever they like. There is a condition of having to return once ever twelve months but I can’t put my finger on it.


#29

That allows people with residence permits to continue to renew their residence permits without establishing Ireland as their physical place of residence. It says absolutely zero about being able to apply for citizenship without a history of actual residence. So I’ll just assume that was another bullshit ‘fact’ you picked out of your arse David Drumm style.


#30

Thanks, that’s what I was getting at, described much better.


#31

I do a fair bit of work in this area so I’m not going to waste time arguing with someone who clearly doesn’t.

When you complete the Form 8 citizenship application form, there is a residency calculator. In order to complete it, you have to type in the dates written on the stamps that are on your passport. An investor who successfully applies under the current scheme, and the proposed scheme, will firstly get a stamp on their passport for two years and, if successful in renewing it, will get a further three-year stamp. Now, let me explain this very simply for you because you clearly don’t know the first thing about this subject; the “residence” that you need to apply for Irish citizenship is what is based on those stamps, not where you live, not where you pay tax. You need to show 60 months’ residence stamps. I repeat. 60 months of residence stamps on your passport will be seen as sufficient residence under the scheme by the Dept of Justice. You are labouring under a mistaken belief that these stamps on the passport are not sufficient and that you have to go further and prove that you are living here. That isn’t the case as it quite clearly set out on the above link.

If you hold a residence permit under the many other schemes, then residence in Ireland is required and if you look up the INIS website for the other types of residence permit applications, such as Zambrano or de facto relationship applications, they specify that one of the conditions of the permit is that the applicant must continue to reside in Ireland.

Did you see this condition in the link that I posted? No. Why? Because having to reside in Ireland is not a conditon of the investor permit scheme.


#32

It would be odd if the link you posted mentioned that specific condition because that link makes no reference at all to being entitled to citizenship. It only covers the right to residency on a renewable basis. Still waiting for you to post something that confirms an entitlement to apply for citizenship without being actually resident.

From the guidelines for the Immigrant Investor Programme:

inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Guidelines%2 … gramme.pdf


#33

The quote above confirms that citizenship is not conferred on those successful applicants under the investor permit scheme i.e. you don’t get an Irish passport straight away. Instead you get a stamp 4 residence permit.

inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP11000014

The above link sets out the reckonable reisdence period required. As an example of how the system works, you’ll note the reference to the one year’s continuous residency in advance of applying. That does not mean that you have to live in Ireland. It means that you must have a stamp on your passport for the twelve months before you apply. Successful investor permit holders will have that stamp because after two years, they will receive a second, three-year stamp. That’s all you need.


#34

Bally Boy knows what he talking about. Two of the three long term rental houses I lived in California over the years were owned by Chinese / ROC nationals who did not reside in the country. In the 80’s it was mostly Taiwanese money, for the last decade it is mostly mainland. In some markets on the west coast non resident Chinese money accounts for the majority of BTL purchases for the last few decades.

Talk to anyone who has lived in Vancouver to find out just how important moving capital off shore is to the Chinese. First the Hong Kong. Now the mainlanders.

These investments are mostly as part of an extended family extension into the US. Children, nephews / nieces, cousins may be in the US as legal residents / citizens but the primary source of capital remains in the home country. As do most of the business active members of the family. But if and when things turn nasty again in the mainland the safety chain has already been established to get to a refuge state. That is how the first wave of Chinese businessmen and their families escaped to HK, Macau and Singapore from Communist China in late 40’s / early 50’s. Through previously established business investments and the family chain to the sanctuary country. The current generation of successful Chinese business people, coming from a culture with a very long institutional memory of very bad things happening on a regular basis, are showing exactly the same prudence their forebears who survived the inevitable catastrophes did.

So if the REIT rules are being changed as posted it is tailor made to tap into this particular Chinese family wealth / health insurance policy.


#35

ft.com/cms/s/0/7de0a9fe-60fe … abdc0.html
Google the headline if paywall blocks you

Malta passport sale puts UK under pressure - FT.com on.ft.com/18x5mIl via @FT
this is a new Malta scheme AFAIK; basically giving out PR rights without residency will rock a few boats;

Financial Times ‏@FT 39m
Free to read: Want to buy an EU passport? €250,000 worth of property in Greece will put you on track for one:
on.ft.com/19yFSHw


#36

Wow. That’ll rock a few boats alright. That will render any possible advantage for REIT investors here completely redundant.

If this meets with success, then Cyprus and Greece will probably follow shortly afterwards.

Interesting times. There’s something cheap and dirty about giving someone a passport without any prior reisdence in the country.


#37

Cyprus already does it albeit with substantially higher € thresholds.