Residency benefits of investing in Ireland


#1

Many posters on here are missing a big point about the REITs.

The Dept of Justice will announce shortly that non-EU investors in REITs (amounts not yet disclosed) will be able to obtain residence permits.

That changes things entirely.


#2

Why?

inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Ne … repreneurs


#3

To use a residence permit you will need a residence?
I don’t think you can sleep in a REIT?
If you buy any decent property in SCD, you will get the permit (see attached link)
thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&p=735139


#4

Another first time poster promoting (I think) REITs!


#5

Deary me. I think you’re mixing up your residences.

That link which you’ve posted has nothing to do with residence permits for non-EU investors.

To be honest, if you’re spoofing about this then it doesn’t bode well for the rest of your posts.

Someone else posted me a link of the current policy. My post was about a future policy, not yet published. There’s no point in posting a link relating to the current policy. I’m aware of the current policy.

The reason for my post was to set the posters on this thread straight about the single most important factor regarding new REITs. For the first time, those investors who are solely interested in investing in property (albeit indirectly through a REIT) will be entitled to a residence permit for themselves and their family.

Other posters mentioned US money. Forget about that. US citizens don’t need a visa to travel to Ireland/Europe. Chinese and Indian nationals do. Word around the campfire is that it’ll be €500K as the magic figure. That’s pittance to many Chinese people who are anxious to get their money out of China.

For the record, I have no connection to a REIT.


#6


#7

Not really. Look at the evidence. Green REIT floated in July at a share price of €1.00. After several months, with no “non-EU investor” input, the share price stands at €1.20.

As an investor, I don’t care whether the share price is articifically high. The value is the value. Those non-EU investors must keep the shares for five years if they want to stay here long term. Having to keep the shares for that length of time is also likely to keep the share price artificially high but I’m sure there are many similar examples in various listings where, whether by fluke or design, the shares have been kept artificially high.

Let me add a further point to the mix which you touched on above. The policy here for non-EU national investors will be unusual in Western Europe as the investor will not be required to reside in Ireland, only to travel here once a year. This is significant as people with that level of money to invest usually run their own businesses in their country of origin and don’t want to have to up sticks entirely. If the policy materialises like I have been led to believe, this will lead to a large and sudden influx of money into whatever mechanisms exist for easy investing in property and obtaining residency/citizenship.


#8

That is the biggest load of bollocks that I have ever read on the Pin.

I’m off now to buy some Apple shares, and a one way ticket to California :laughing:


#9

Let me repeat, non-EU nationals are not entitled to a residence permit in Ireland by buying property alone. That has always been the position so mentioning the historic position of international buyers of property is a non sequitur. That won’t change much even with the new policy for residence permits as they relate to REITs only, not the private purchase of property. You seem to be confusing the two.

If you accept what I am saying about the new investor permit policy (and no-one on here has yet properly questioned it), then would you not accept that it has the potential to increase the interest or value in the REITs (particularly as there are only two)? The fact is that you and others have spent three pages of this thread casting aspersions on the competence of the board of one of the REITs while at the same time being blissfully unaware of one of the major relevant factors surrounding its potential value. An irony-free zone.


#10

@ Ballyboy,

I have a couple of questions and a few points regarding the REIT Investor residence permit. Obviously I haven’t seen any future legislation so I have no idea what the plans are but unfortunately I just don’t see this so called “New policy” making a difference. I think the current legislation specifically prohibits residency permits to REIT Investors so I assume the Government are just amending the legislation to allow REIT Investors get permits. The Government probably think this new policy will be the property panacea, it wont be. There is so much more that needs to be done and to be honest I don’t have much faith in any of the people responsible for doing the work in getting it done. This wont be a game changer because ;

1- As you know Residency permits in Ireland are already available to Non EU Citizens if you have the means. As far as I am aware the current figure stands @ between €500K -€1M depending on the investment type so getting residency in Ireland is nothing new. If an NON EU National wants residency in Ireland then they don’t need to invest in a REIT to get it. Most jurisdictions offer some sort of investor programme.

2 - Having not seen the proposed changes I am assuming that Residency does not equal citizenship / passport so holders will not have freedom of travel within the EU. This means that Chinese nationals will still have to apply for a Visa to visit every other country in Europe. Unless the Irish residency permit has the same rights as the Schengen Visa then its pretty much worthless unless they actually want to reside in Ireland. (I expect some will want to move away from China, security, pollution, etc ). BTW, the Chinese currently get a “Golden Visa” in Portugal giving the freedom to live and travel throughout Europe excluding the UK and Ireland. Even if the policy allows holders to apply for permanent residency and /or citizenship after 5 years, residency and citizenship are very different and citizenship will not be guaranteed.

3- Residency or Tax Residency, Not sure from your posts if the you expect that many Chinese will avail of the permit and actually relocate to Ireland or if its just “an escape route” incentive that could be used in Emergency. I suspect that some Chinese would enjoy living in Ireland but why would anyone want to claim residency and not live here? If its about taking up tax residency in Ireland then a Chinese national might not have to visit Ireland more than once a year but they will probably have to leave China for a least half the year. You will also have to consider the Chinese - Ireland DTA and how the Chinese tax authorities treat non resident Chinese people.

4 - Direct Access - There are No Direct flights between Ireland and China. I understand that this might change in the not too distant future but unless there are direct flights and we offer proper Visa’s then the policy is not a game changer its still game over.

BTW, Not sure how Malta treats NON EU Residents but I know EU residents can visit Malta once and then never again. Maltese residents also only pay tax on income remitted to Malta so for about 20K you could be tax resident in Malta and live elsewhere and possibly tax free. The Maltese Immigration programme is far more attractive to HNWI than Ireland, not sure if Malta is part of the Schengen visa.


#11

Devilsbit,

My apologies for the delay in responding.

To address the introductory paragraph of your post, you are right about the current policy (it’s not legislation - all of these schemes are policy-based) not allowing residence on the basis of propery purchases alone. The reason for the upcoming change in the policy is that only 9 applications have been made to the Dept under the current investor permit scheme which was introduced in April 2012. It’s not working and the UK, for example, allows for family residency on investing £200,000 so there’s a huge discrepency between the two. The money is too high and the current policy too awkward.

To address your numbered paragraphs:-

  1. As I said, the current policy is not working. You rightly point out that other countries operate investment residence permits, however very few operate it on the basis of property purchases. Malta and Cyprus used do it alot more than they are doing it now because the natives got restless when property prices started to spiral when those pesky Russians started buying it all up. The proposed new policy, however, is an entirely different animal to the current policy as described in your post.

The huge advantage in the Irish policy is that you do not have to reside here. That should not be underestimated. The last thing a wealthy Chinese businessman wants to do is leave his business, coke and honeyz behind in Shanghai to come to Ireland. However, the new policy provides that residence permits will be granted to the applicant, their spouse/partner and all children under the age of 18 (which for Chinese means one) on the basis that they enter the country once every calendar year. They can purchase the shares in the REIT, someone else looks after the whole thing and after five years they can sell their shares. They then have the choice of long term residence or applying for Irish citizenship. By that stage, the underage kids can attend third level anywhere in Europe on the basis that they have an EU passport. Education is very important for Indians and Chinese.

  1. Many of the proposed non-EU investors will come from countries where dual nationality is not allowed. Nationals from Russia, Malaysia, China and India are examples of countries that will not allow you to hold an Irish passport aswell. The Chinese take this very seriously, so much so that officials from the Chinese embassy in Dublin attend the citizenship ceremonies to look out for Chinese-looking individuals taking the oath of allegiance! Therefore, many opt to keep their passports of origin while holding on to their residence permits. Citizenship, while not guaranteed, is easily attainable if you have five years’ reckonable residence, have no convictions, claimed no benefits and paid tax if working. As far as I am aware, there is no country in the EU that offers citizenship straight away, just residency and after a fashion, citizenship. To offer citizenship immediately would be a controversial step for any country to take and would go down like a sh1t sandwich with the other EU neighbours as that allows free movement throughout the EU. The Cypriots, for example, might like to think that applicants will remain there but I doubt the Brits, French or Germans would be too pleased.

I was not aware of the “golden visa” to Portugal but, again, I presume that the successful applicant gets a residence permit. You raise a good point about Schengen. It is a disadvantage for Ireland and UK not to be in it and moves are afoot in the UK to join it (which means we’ll follow) but Schengen is overrated. Having a Schengen visa only allows you to travel to the various countries. You cannot work or reside there. It is a visa - it allows you entry through the borders of the countries.

  1. I don’t see the issue of of tax residency being an advantage. I can’t see anyone moving for that and I don’t think the Dept sees it either.

  2. No direct access? Are you for real? Do you actually think this is a push factor?

We’ll have to see if the new policy works and people start investing in REITs. Time will tell. When you buy a property in China, you get a 70-year lease only. It is possible for your offspring to take over the lease but ultimately you have to render unto Caeser. Opportunities for investing in property outside of your own home vary from province to province but are generally rare. There is also a lack of trust in a totalitarian state where the government can simply take your money and you can do diddly squat about. A stable Western democracy which allows you to dump your money in secure PLCs while not having to live there is attractive.


#12

FFS, without access to the EU, what’s the point? There are many other ways you can achieve this here and many jurisdictions with easier tax regimes you could park your rainy day capital and have residence rights. This is a diversion. Not a game changer. I’ll split off the residency posts tomorrow. This is about the financial pros and cons of investing in this REIT - and not REITs generally.


#13

There’s nothing to stop access to the EU. Any non-EU national who resides in Ireland can apply for a visa to another EU country. It’s a disadvantage to have to apply for a second visa but could hardly be described as no access.

Can you name those other EU countries that will allow you to obtain a residence permit without actually residing there?


#14

As I said, the residency issue is a diversion from whether this is a good financial investment or not. The thread will be split to discuss the residency issue.


#15

For somebody who just joined 2 days ago, you have a lot of passion about this subject. You might find a more receptive audience if you were a bit more respectful of people who respond to your thread.

The “Chinese people who are anxious to get their money out of China” comment puzzles me. I know a lot about China and one of the biggest problems is how to get your money out of China with currency controls and vigilance about tax evasion and money laundering. Finding a place to invest it afterwards is much easier.


#16

I see Hibernia REIT got off to a blistering start today.

Wait 'til the foreigners get here!


#17

Blistering? :neutral_face:


#18

I’m not looking for a receptive audience. I’m just giving the policy and the law as it is. Whether people like it or not is irrelevant and if there’s disrespect being bandied about, it is those who mock the board members of the Hibernia REIT. This thread is an off-shoot of the initial REITs thread (which still exists) and you’ll be able to glean who’s disrespectful and who isn’t on that.

I don’t understand the point you’re making in the second paragraph. There are many Chinese people who are anxious to get their money out of China. I know this because they’ve told me. For those who are very wealthy or know the right people, there are no restrictions on the amount of money you can transfer out of your bank account. For most people, you are allowed to transfer $50,000 per account per year. That is why many Chinese people who are buying property in Ireland will transfer funds from many different accounts into the one account here.


#19

I thought the law and policy was about to be clarified. If the H REIT was the only way to get these benefits, fair point. If not, you are just trolling and get lost.

HQ trolling though I must say.


#20

There will be a new policy and investing in REITs will be one aspect of the policy. I think it’s the most interesting aspect given the various points which I have raised heretofore. I expect a sharp upturn in the numbers investing to get residence permits but I guess time will tell.

Also, I saw an ad on RTE 1 this evening for a programme on Monday night called “Who’s buying Ireland?” or something like that. It’s about various overseas investors and there’s a clip of one of them holding up his Irish passport. I don’t know what type of investment their engaging in but I assume there’s a property element to it.