Self Employed workers in equality shocker

seems a few back benchers are pissed that self-employed workers will now pay the same tax and PRSI as their PAYE counterparts … 53436.html


But - herself who is self-employed (and earning a lot less than the average industrial wage) is concerned that she will now be paying PAYE workers rates of PRSI - but will still not be able to claim dole or any benefit (apart from the old-age pension). Seems iniquitous.

don’t worry

wait, he’s not talking about that anomaly…

Seriously, isn’t he a Cork based TD - write to him for the craic?

I’m afraid that in addition to getting no benefit from the same level of PRSI, she will also pay a higher effective rate of tax.

See my rough calculations here at post 11, the most startling being that at minimum wage, the effective tax for a PAYE employee is 4%, for a self employed person it is 17%:

Her indoors paid PRSI at the PAYE rate for 25 years. When she lost her job this got her 44 weeks @ €196. From then on she seemed to be in the same position as a self-employed person i.e. she would need to pass a means test to get anything else off the state. Is this correct? So in her case she paid 25 years of the PRSI differential between PAYE and Self-Employed and in return got about €300 for each year of extra contributions. Would she have been better to have saved the PRSI differential or put it into a redundancy insurance policy? Answers on a postcard.

I do agree however that if the rates are going to be equalised then so should the benefits although you might argue that a qualifying period should apply.

  1. Which differential, the 1% difference?
  2. Did she pay PRSI and Health levy on all her salary?
  3. Did she pay PRSI on her pension payments?
  4. Did she pay Health Levy on her deposit interest?
  5. Did she also get a PAYE allowance? …

My simplistic understanding of this is that PRSI is an insurance payment, where the dole is the payout on your unemployment (maybe this is why the unemployed are sometimes called claimants?). As such each months payment is forfeit if you don’t become unemployed. It could be considered fortunate that your wife had 25 years of continuous employment before her luck ran out.

I also agree that if we all pay the same insurance policy we should all get the same payout, but again only on payment of an agreed premium for an agreed lead in time. Isn’t there something about getting sufficient stamps?

Is the establishment concern over dole payments for self-employed due to abuse i.e. setting up your own company, paying a few months PRSI and then folding and claiming the dole?

Well, you need two years stamps to get JB, no?

As self-employed? I don’t know. But if there is, then I don’t see why the self employed can’t get the same dole as everyone else. Anybody know the history or reasoning? With a big tin foil hat on, I’ll suggest that it was to force the entrepeneurial to stay entrepeneurial so that the civil servants would still get paid :angry:

No, JB is the insurance one, it is only available to PAYE workers. You need two years continuous PAYE stamp for JB was what I meant (actually, maybe it is 48 weeks in the previous two years?). JA is open to anyone who has worked in the state for the previous two years or is born-and-bred.

Many reasons have been suggested e.g. that it is very hard to tell when someone who is self employed has actually been made redundant (reason for JB) or has just decided to quit (not reason for JB).

My own view is that they do it because they can, and the self employed getting angry is not a threat.

So why the hell am I self employed again? :astonished: Someone remind me…

So that you can plow your own furrow and call no man mister, in the greatest traditions of Locke et al.

because nobody would employ you? :laughing:

Am I correct in assuming that the self employed here are Sole Traders?

Is there any difference being a director of a ltd company (as a provider of services)?
a la Pat Kenny etc

Re. 1: If the difference was so little then the distinction is mad all right. My point is we all seem to get SFA for what we pay for PRSI.

Re 2: Thresholds changed over the years but quite often yes I would guess.

Re 3: no not a penny as she had a private sector 0% employee contribution DB pension scheme

Re 4: what is this deposit income of which you speak?

Re 5: yes

So armed will all that did she get any significant benefit? I can deal with the answer either way - mainly just curious!

There are more tax shelters available, pension for example. There’s probably some other funky stuff too. As far as the Welfare are concerned, self-employed and proprietary director are the same. There’ve been a few cases, IIRC, of people who paid employer PRSI still being refused JB because they were directors and so shouldn’t have paid the PRSI.

Pension is bollox it is not a real energy store nor is it useful to society in truth or in the case of those who need maximum access to capital its a drain. Like all the other crap insurance, insurance, insurance… Forcing those to borrow more but tax it and them force them to borrow some more to leverage and most dispense with the stupidity and wax the wheels in different form direct ways a viola “Ireland” sure it south of the border!

The actions of liars when they say they are loyal too innovation when they progress to the regressive like a 65 year old baby to the tit leaves a sour taste.

Eat the young. Ah Swift if you only knew…

actually he is my local TD and he’s not at all bad, despite being FF! I had some correspondence with him re the Bank Guarantee but he would not give me permission to put his responses up here.
I must annoy go him about this - thanks for the tip.

Can anyone enlighten me as to the thinking behind the treatment of sole traders form a tax point of view?

Or is there none. I had an audit once and I have to say it was the most wasteful experience in my life and cost me financially too. Them most memorable bit was when both ladies giggled as they had to ask me was “I Married”.

The most expensive tea and bickies episode ever!