Struggling to Rent - "Don't Mention Sustainable Immigration" - David Quinn


#22

All that tells you is that the economy is too big for the country.

Heres an adjunct to the whole situation;
As long as politicians keep pretending that an increase in the supply of X (in this case labour or ‘skills’) does not cause a reduction in the value or the price of X, then political turmoil will ensue.
This has happened more quickly in the UK and mainland EU because they have been implementing QE policies which inflate the costs (or deflate the incomes) of economic participants (in addition to mass immigration).
This is now happening in Ireland.

It follows that in the coming years you will have a massive political backlash.

I warned about this here many years ago when the Freeman thing was in its pomp.
I was correct then and I’m correct now. It may not be the freeman-group but A.N.Other; the point stands.

France has only been calmed by an 800 year old treasure burning to the ground and the Brits are too scared to hold Euro elections because the mainstream parties could be wiped out.

Underestimate this at your peril.


#23

We’ve hitched our little wagon to the globalisation freight train.
When you have big debts, you need a big economy.


#24

We do not have full employment, there is spare capacity in the workforce


#25

Yes, but that’s the equivalent of saying we do not have a housing shortage in Ireland if you take the country as a whole. It’s technically correct but not a very useful measure. The fact that there is housing available in Donegal is not much use to someone whose life is in Dublin. And the fact that we have unemployed peat processors isn’t much use to a company looking to fill an opening as a bilingual process automation engineer.


#26

So why dont the companies seeking the workers retrain the available Labour?

Well, because there is a much, much cheaper spigot that can be turned on; immigration.

From what I can make out, as soon as your country reaches this conclusion and its government pivots to facilitate this approach, then the govt ceases to serve the people and begins to serve the corporations.

This is the undercurrent behind nearly all of the populist movements in Europe; (If someone can find a country that which has elected a “populist” govt and hasn’t had mass immigration or severe Econo-mandering (or both) I’d love to know of it…)

If these policies are, in effect, a Corporate takeover of the State then surely those who agitate for, design, implement or facilitate them are enemies of the State?


#27

@Erudite_Whimsy_Esq

  1. Cost
  2. Employees of state?

#28

Improve their standards of living while at the same time lowering the expectations of the indigenous population by replacing in the jobs that they used to do.

Providing a skilled employee for “free” as another country paid (or personally funded) their education & training.

Create an unfair advantage by “skimming off” the best workers from many countries around the world, for example; with all the skilled Polish mechanics that appear here, what are the mechanics that are left in Poland like??


#29

Languages.

The soft underbelly of Ireland’s culture and education system, is our attitude to second (or third) languages after English (assuming we want to maintain our Gaeilge), especially for a country that is supposedly so dependent on EU markets to put bread on the table. Migrants add the multi lingual skillset


#30

Having grown up in Galway in the 1980s I have a different perspective on this. I saw the positive impact that having a large multinational in the town had then. There was definitely a widely held view that DEC was the single biggest factor in Galway maintaining an economic dynamism that saw it strongly out perform Limerick and Waterford during that period. Even when it closed 25 years ago the reaction was philosophical; yes, the city had lost its biggest employer and one of its best paying ones, but the people made redundant were highly employable as a result of having worked there. They had gained valuable experience working for a major multinational and quite a few had spent time on international postings within the company. When DEC closed many set up in business on their own and provided an entrepreneurial and economic boost to the city, the effects of which are still being felt. There was never any resentment, that I was aware of, of the foreign employees shipped into Galway by DEC. There was an acceptance that their expertise was required and, even when they were fresh hires and were actually in Galway to learn the ropes, there was an understanding that giving employees in different countries was how multinationals worked. I met one Indian national recently who had been brought there for a time in the 80s and for whom Galway holds such fond memories that he is now back here doing graduate studies in NUIG.

My opinion is also informed by having spent 20 years working in another country. The local expertise was just not available so that was why I was there. Training locals definitely happened and, as I progressed there, the positions I vacated were filled by locals. Some were people who had worked with me so I I trained them directly into the roles I was moving on from. But that was a process of years and that’s why it made sense to bring foreigners in.

If having multinational employers in the country means we have to allow skilled international workers in to fill some of the roles then I think that’s a fair trade off. To my mind it’s a much better than not having multinationals at all.


#31

Talking about these topics, I think there are 3 broad categories of migration.

  • Normal Migration
  • Skilled Migration
  • Mass Migration

With skilled migration. Those skills are needed straight away.
Say for example a company needs a specific type of programmer.
A good programmer might take 10 years to get to the level of expertise required. Companies don’t have time or capital for that type of investment.

I agree with @JohnnyTheFox’s post with regards to the beneficial effects of skilled migration.


#32

I was one of those DEC employees in the 80s. Went on to become the first employee of an indigenous Irish software company that eventually employed many hundreds and had offices globally. That company itself spawned several others. Multiple people I knew branched out on similar trajectories. Ireland gets lots of things wrong, but the IDA’s courting of the multinational sector isn’t one of them.


#33

Word is out - Go to Ireland instead of UK because 2 year work visa, then citizenship - easy peasy, lemon squeezy.


#34

“Trust me on this, the Rep of Ireland is very flexible”
“Its very easy to adjust your student status down the line and stay on permanently. Trust me on this”
“Everywhere we Africans go, we abuse …flexible systems. That makes it harder for the Africans coming behind us”

He had to read the name of the country off his notes because he barely ever heard of us before!


#35

Getting someone to upskill in a particular language takes 3-6 months tops, Java to Scala as an example.

When you import people to fill the roles you remove demand which suppresses pay and lots of Java devs won’t learn Scala because the premium has vanished, it’s a negative feedback loop.


#36

Programmers, as skills providers have to cater to the market.

IMHO, someone with 3-6 month training in a new idiom will not be an expert in that idiom.
(Perhaps we’re talking about different ideas. After 3-6 month the person could certainly be proficient. It depends on the requirements for the particular job.)

If the employer, in a globally competitive market, (with limited time and capital constraints) needs an expert programmer, then they need them now. Not in 6 to however many months it takes to train them months time.

Ideally the employer should be obliged to prove that they can’t find this expert locally before looking abroad.


#37

Agreed, this applies in any unprotected profession, but when government policy skews that market at the whim of employers then that skills gap is hindered from being met domestically. We will never develop the people with the skills if it’s cheaper to import.

AFAIK it takes about 6 months to fill a role like this, domestically or internationally, so you can have your expert - who may not be what they purport, or you can have someone proficient, who equally may not be what they purport but the expert has had bigger investment WRT to time, admin, visas etc. and inertia will mean they remain.

‘Experts’ are an edge case?


#38

Expert is an edge case. There’s a big gap between the 6mth trainee and seasoned expert. It’s within that gap that companies might have to look abroad to hire.

The Government wants to attract the large global tech companies.
These large global tech companies want/need to be able to hire from a global talent pool.
The presence of the these global tech companies has improved the employment conditions for Irish individuals working in tech.

We can’t have the cake and eat it.


#39

What’s the population of the EU? How many hundred million? Why the need for labour from outside this huge market?


#40

Well that was kind of odd! The video says at the start there are 10-12% of the population who are non-native. Then at 02:30 the Dublin City Community Co-Op CEO says that it’s 18-19% … with no explanation of the discrepancy.


#41

That was a confusing piece…

White Irish:roll_eyes: -> Polarization and making issue about skin colour.

You know you are dealing with grade A BS when you hear that type of terminology.

@ps200306

.with foreign nationals now making up 12% of the country’s populations.

As with all migration topics covered by state media; everything is fudged and conflated. You have to parse out each fact presented to discover what’s actually being said.