Tánaiste Simon Covney Confirms 500,000 migrants for Ireland


#43

This discussion gets more confused when people use terms interchangeably.
Migrant = Refugee = Economic migrant = Asylum seeker
Mass Migration = Migration = Immigration

BBC wrote some good articles on this.

The battle over the words used to describe migrants
bbc.com/news/magazine-34061097

Asylum seekers, migrants or refugees: Which word is correct?
bbc.com/news/newsbeat-46747502

Also, populist emotional appeals also tend to polarize the discussion and make this topic difficult to discuss and causes more confusion.

[IMHO, that’s fine for some, since in maintains the status quo.]


#44

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks_in_Syria

Since there are only about 4500 Greeks in Syria today it seems millions of “Greek refugees” didn’t settle in Syria or the Middle East in the 1940s, so why should we allow millions of Syrians just walk into Europe today ?

No, the problem is too much immigration at a time when almost all European populations are shrinking, your failure to understand demographics of this is leading you astray

It only takes a generation or two before a mismatch in birth rates and excessive immigration can totally transform a country, at this point anyone who doubts it is a fool, but of course the people pushing this agenda hardest know it well


#45

Are you talking about immigration or refugees?

Demographics suggests that in the near future western economies will be competing against eachother for the refugees, whoops sorry, should that be immigrant?

Japan has already given up fighting their agequake.


#46

“western economies will be competing against each other for (skilled) immigrant workers” This statement is probably true. Your original statement is imo propaganda.

It’s called a brain drain.

“Japan has already given up fighting their age quake.” Japans problems are as a consequence of their post ww2 banking system with its boom, bust and stagnation.


#47

I don’t see much difference any more, its clear that most refugees are just economic migrants anyway, the media and the open boarders people just use the word refugess as propaganda


#48

They will yeah, whats the unemployment rate for “Syrians” in Germany ?

The FT says its 40% but I would bet its far higher, the Germans will never make an economic return on their “Syrian” population and the social problems will only increase


#49

Well that’s because they’re displaced people, refugees. Immigrants, and I am one myself go to engage an economic need.

I don’t know why people who flee war in Syria are branded immigrants.


#50

immigrant: a person who comes (by choice) to live permanently in a foreign country.

A refugee, generally speaking, is a displaced person who has been forced to cross national boundaries and who cannot return home safely.

IMHO, once conditions return to normal. Refugees who have been granted asylum should be assisted in returning to their countries of origin. If this doesn’t occur then a refugee effectively becomes an immigrant.

There are I think very good reasons for keeping the asylum process separate from the immigration process. There are also ideological, political and financial reasons why some special interest groups seek to blur the boundaries between these processes.


#51

Probably one of the main reasons why economic migration is so bad for many “developing” nations, those countries will never be able to develop properly is all their best people keep leaving, it’s little wonder the remaining (unskilled but) motivated people want to leave.


#52

That’s somewhat mitigated by a a reverse flow in remittances.

Which anti-immigration people will bemoan as “money leaving the economy” or whatever.

It’s also a bit of a lazy generalisation. Would it make sense applied to Ireland in the 1980s? That everyone who stayed in the country either wanted to leave or lacked motivation?

To invoke another lazy generalisation, a common pattern in “developing” countries (aren’t all countries developing?) was to send rich/connected kids abroad for their education so that they can return with a broader view and work in the government or civil service. I don’t know to what extent that pattern still exists.

Syria is an interesting case though. Who are going to be the people in personal danger (and seeking foreign asylum) if and when Assad properly restores power?


#53

@Eschatologist
What’s a ‘lazy generalization’?
When you say ‘anti-immigration’, what do you mean?


#54

The problem is the fact that for every Indian doctor working here, there is one less doctor in India, something that clearly puts the “home” country at a disadvantage. As for wealthy people sending their children abroad to be educated, as far as I know that practice is still very much alive, mainly due to the lack of local educational facilities with the highly trained educators (they’re abroad).

After being educated in Europe/US, they often remain and the home country doesn’t benefit from their education.


#55

Sorry, I was specifically referring to “those countries will never be able to develop properly if all their best people keep leaving, it’s little wonder the remaining (unskilled but) motivated people want to leave.”

Anti-immigration means having an ideological opposition to immigration in principle.


#56

The Indian doctors moving abroad are doing so presumably because of issues in the Indian healthcare system. The same as Irish doctors leaving.

Would you argue that the solution to the Irish doctor retention issue is increasing immigration controls in Australia, Canada, the UK? That’s hard to argue and rather difficult to achieve. The solution to the problem is to fix the Irish heathcare system so that they don’t want to or feel they have to leave. Same for India.

Just as with trade in goods and services, putting up barriers to protect markets may provide some temporary relief, but it doesn’f fix structural issues.


#57

What is this ideology called?


#58

The main “structural issues” appear to simply be financial reward and the ability to pay sufficiently well to avoid haemorrhaging the key staff. In a globalised world where it is easy to abandon ship and get a similar job elsewhere at a higher pay because the host country is too mean to train its own doctors, say a lot about modern society.


#59

Where? India or Ireland? People don’t generally leave their home country for a bit more money, all other things being equal. Apart from anything else, immigrants are discriminated against in labour markets everywhere, so whilst you might get a bump in nominal terms, you could be worse off in PPP terms. Immigrants are usually overqualified for the positions they hold.

The doctors I’ve spoken to move around for career development and lifestyle reasons. That eventually brings financial reward, but that’s not the primary motivator.


#60

I think you have an idea of what you want me to say, but I don’t know what that is. Maybe multiple-choice questions would generate the answer you’re looking for.


#61

If the ideology is based on an opposition to immigration for economic reasons it would be described as isolationism (as opposed to globalization)

If the ideology is based on an opposition to people from a different country immigrating to your country it would be described as nationalism

If the ideology is based on an opposition to people of a different race immigrating to your country it would be described as racism

If the ideology is based on an opposition to people of a different religion immigrating to your country it would be described as bigotry or religious intolerance

I’m sure there are a few other ideologies that would cause people to oppose immigration - agism, political beliefs, sexual orientation


#62

@metalmike
Thanks. That’s a good description of the main ideologies. Where would Japan fit into that model?

Now the problem I would have this this terminology, “anti-immigration” (anti-anything really) is that it tends polarizes the discussion and turns it into a ideological battle. In ideological battles, you’re either with us or against us.

Take for examples an individual who is of the opinion that mass immigration is not a good idea.
(For financial, culture, fear of potential for ghettoisation…there could be any number of reasons, with supporting arguments)
That does not mean they are “anti-immigration”.
They may welcome the controller immigration of skilled workers.