The Irish Education system. Bork central

[2Pack]

After mucho squealing from Castlerock the Times tries to straddle the grand canyon and fails. Informing a debate me hole.

irishtimes.com/news/educatio … -1.1361045

NOTE quotes are resynched by 2Pack. They do not appear as sequenced by the Times but they appear.

The end of the private school?

Ehhh, the taxpayer pays for the teachers but carry on.

Ireland’s fee paying schools have consistently pointed to a report, commissioned by 27 Catholic and Protestant private schools from Pricewaterhouse Cooper (PwC), which claims that “in 2009, the average cost, excluding pensions and pension related costs, to the State to educate a second-level student was €8,035 in a non-fee-paying school and €4,552 in a fee-paying school”.

PWC lost more than one bank on their watch. What PWC did was load the VEC sector and the Voluntary secondary sector** together** here. This is FALSE Accounting…but we offically had banks then I think thanks to PwC

They loaded all the VEC Bertie era schemes including Youthreach (costs a fortune) PLCs ( cost a fortune) and deprivation supplements like DEIS (only urban VEC schools nowadats since Quinn abolished rural deprivation) and also the still extant language and traveller support systems in VEC schools into the spreadsheet.

Then they added the VOLUNTARY SECONDARY SCHOOLS who do not (generally) run Youthreach (costs a fortune) PLCs ( cost a fortune) and deprivation supplements like DEIS (only urban VEC schools nowadats since Quinn abolished rural deprivation) and also the still extant language and traveller support systems into the same spreadheet.

Then they AVERAGED these costs across schools that receive none of these special scheme incomes. And by averageing they destroyed the VOLUNTARY SECONDARY SCHOOL system since austerity arrived into town.

The PROBLEM is that the VOLUNTARY SECONDARY SCHOOLS are the education system. **Most of …like…everybody with a brain who is relied upon to run anything in Ireland **went to a VOLUNTARY SECONDARY SCHOOL along with a small rump wo went to Private Schools and are/were not bankers or work for PwC.

Middle Ireland exists because of the VOLUNTARY SECONDARY SCHOOL sector. It was nuns and brothers in my day but they
are long gone out of it. Sadly Ruari Quinn has spnt his entire career hollowing out the VOLUNTARY SECONDARY SCHOOLS to the extent that 50% of them ( including most schools that were attended by Irish Times journalists ) will close by the end of this decade the way Quinn is runnig things.

Following enquires by The Irish Times to all 55 fee-paying schools in the State and to the Joint Managerial Body (JMB), which represents the management of some 400 fee-paying and non-fee paying schools, the PwC report was given to this newspaper. The report has been consistently cited by those opposing a reduction in State support for fee-paying schools. This includes Fine Gael’s Eoghan Murphy and Lucinda Creighton (Dublin South East), various principals of fee-paying schools, and the JMB.**

The Teachers’ Union of Ireland (TUI) has called the PwC figures “grossly exaggerated”**

The TUI would. They do not have members in the VOLUNTARY SECONDARY SCHOOL sector, only in VECs. But a lot of the support payments that they have have been cut back since PwC published their report. It would be unwise to assume the Bertie era spending delivered anything useful but the cash kept TUI members busy. They don’t cost as much as that though. Back to the Times.

The PwC report combines the State costs of running secondary schools with the costs of the further education sector, including Post Leaving Certificate (PLC) courses, Vocational Training and Opportunities Schemes (VTOS), Traveller training, adult and community education, outdoor education centres, and youth services. By adding these areas together, the report presents a higher cost for the publicly-funded second-level system. In comparison, the relative cost to the State of fee-paying schools appears much lower.

And the cost of the VOLUNTARY SECONDARY SCHOOL sector is the lowest of all. It comes in at slightly above Fee Paying …less than €1000 per skulll and at half that of the (frankly) shite PwC number but in reality at 2/3 of the like for like PwC number. and a hell of a lot better value. It is just taht Daddy and Mummy dont pay €5000 a year per chile from the pocket on top of that ( for a day pupil)

And the schools caught in the middle are where the average literate numerate Pin member learnt to read and write and express themselves hereabouts. You can forget about your own offsprings though. tech or privaye for them. Most of them will be shut by 2020 and it is the fault of the near doddrering Mr Quinn and his innumerate staff in his departmemt.

And with them goes our last hope for a better future. The VEC sector produces very little product of any merit.

Thanks a lot to PwC for deliberately misframing the debate too but that is OK seeing as the portners generally went to a VOLUNTARY SECONDARY SCHOOL while their spoilt chilters went to Castlerock so they could scream at plebs in cafés off Dame St. The Times bleats on about them for many column inches thereafter.

I’ll keep it simple…how may Pinsters attended their local Tech???

[BlameGame]

We have a thread about this somewhere. But this nonsense report deserves its own thread.

I liked this comment

DenisMcCarthy
This is a really disappointing article. The headline promises an analysis of how the figures stack up but instead we get nothing but the previously-reported figures and a re-hash of the same old talking points. This article calls into question the both the PWC figures (which apparently include adult education and post-leaving cert courses) and those from the Department of Education (who are accused of treating money spent on light and heat as “discretionary spending”) But despite the fact that the IT claims to be in possession of both reports it seems that no one in “the paper of record” was bothered to do a bit of basic arithmetic and provide us with some reliable numbers.
I’m bored of reading articles that are more concerned with providing equal space to opposing special interests than they are with establishing actual, verifiable, facts.

That JMB crowd are insufferable.

[doubleglaze]

@2Pack

And with them goes our last hope for a better future. The VEC sector produces very little product of any merit.

I’ll keep it simple…how may Pinsters attended their local Tech???

It is commonplace for parents to send their more academic offspring to the local secondary school and the less academic child to the local Tech.

We’ll send little Johnny to the Tech - they have a marvellous programme there for students with dyslexia!/ They’re very good at dealing with students who hated primary school/They’ve a lovely atmosphere there and little Johnny would thrive better there than in the local secondary where the atmosphere isn’t as “nice”.

Meanwhile, Patrick is sent to the local secondary school where he wastes too much time on religious indoctrination.

If the local secondary school dispensed with the religious indoctrination, they might do a lot better than they actually do. The Techs do very well indeed considering the cohort they generally get. In fact, if Mummy and Daddy sent their academic kids to the Tech, they’d probably do better there than in the local secondary, as less time would be wasted there in religious indoctrination.

[2Pack]

@doubleglaze

If the local secondary school dispensed with the religious indoctrination, they might do a lot better than they actually do. The Techs do very well indeed considering the cohort they generally get. In fact, if Mummy and Daddy sent their academic kids to the Tech, they’d probably do better there than in the local secondary, as less time would be wasted there in religious indoctrination.

Most of the league tables are dominated by the local secondary schools despite that. Mummy and Daddy will be sending their sprogs to the tech whether they want to or not and within 10 years anyway…unless they can afford the fees for a small number of private schools.

Quinn will get what he wants, in fact he will get all he wants. The religous will be gone out of education shortly along with Quinn himself when he retires. But he is fighting a 1970s and 1980s battle at the wrong time here. Shame the actual education will be gone out of it as well and that he will crash the bits that work best to get his way.

Apart from the academic results secondary schools also cost a hell of a lot less than VEC schools ( even after the mendacious lying rubbish from PwC is stripped out) and on a strict like for like basis but including the extra VEC backroom staff, our new religious orders.

[Tis_Meself]

@doubleglaze

@2Pack

And with them goes our last hope for a better future. The VEC sector produces very little product of any merit.

I’ll keep it simple…how may Pinsters attended their local Tech???

It is commonplace for parents to send their more academic offspring to the local secondary school and the less academic child to the local Tech.

We’ll send little Johnny to the Tech - they have a marvellous programme there for students with dyslexia!/ They’re very good at dealing with students who hated primary school/They’ve a lovely atmosphere there and little Johnny would thrive better there than in the local secondary where the atmosphere isn’t as “nice”.

Meanwhile, Patrick is sent to the local secondary school where he wastes too much time on religious indoctrination.

If the local secondary school dispensed with the religious indoctrination, they might do a lot better than they actually do. The Techs do very well indeed considering the cohort they generally get. In fact, if Mummy and Daddy sent their academic kids to the Tech, they’d probably do better there than in the local secondary, as less time would be wasted there in religious indoctrination.

Hold up!
I went to my local Tech … and got a great education which set me up for my current career.

[Homeboy]

@2Pack

schemes including Youthreach (costs a fortune) PLCs ( cost a fortune)

The Teachers’ Union of Ireland (TUI) has called the PwC figures “grossly exaggerated”

The TUI would. They do not have members in the VOLUNTARY SECONDARY SCHOOL sector, only in VECs.

The VEC sector produces very little product of any merit.

I’ll keep it simple…how may Pinsters attended their local Tech???

• 100%

The VEC sector is full of UNRECOGNISED AND UNACKNOWLEDGED dysfunctionality and inefficiency. CEOs of VECs are accountable to …NOBODY!

HOw many Pinsters will send their children to a VEC school? (Although Maynooth and Castleknock VEC schools have a good reputation)

[yoganmahew]

@Tis Meself

Hold up!
I went to my local Tech … and got a great education which set me up for my current career.

I think that’s doubleglaze’s point in the last sentence. Her point is about parents rather than schools.

[FirstBass]

Lots of snide “mummy and daddy sending little Johnny” commentary in this thread which doesn’t help.

I’ve repeated ad nauseum on this site that the vast majority of people I know sending their kids to private schools are ordinary people. Good people, not given to doses of moral superiority. Not “spoilt childers” or any of your other lazy stereotypes.

It’s very interesting that the PWC figure turns out to be bogus. Feel free to have a good ideological circle-jerk over that fact.

[FirstBass]

@FirstBass

This is the results of a survey of Protestant fee-charging schools taken last year, if you look at the income spread of parents you will see that the kids there mix with children from all financial backgrounds. You will also see that the main reasons that people choose these schools are because of things like ethos, mixed gender, religion, and subject choice. Friends and family going there and sport are bottom in the list. People may prefer to believe that all kids are Ross OCarroll-Kelly but that is a stereotype, a caricature.

https://s16.postimage.org/y2lagximt/Screen_Shot_2013_02_22_at_10_32_35.png

[Ardillaun]

Is it at least true to say that private schools seem to get a better deal in Ireland than the UK? My relatives in England seem to be paying much more in fees than my far wealthier acquaintances in Ireland who complain about the fees all the time.

[Homeboy]

@Ardillaun

Is it at least true to say that private schools seem to get a better deal in Ireland than the UK? My relatives in England seem to be paying much more in fees than my far wealthier acquaintances in Ireland who complain about the fees all the time.

Er, I thought private schooling was optional, not compulsory?

[FirstBass]

@Ardillaun

Is it at least true to say that private schools seem to get a better deal in Ireland than the UK? My relatives in England seem to be paying much more in fees than my far wealthier acquaintances in Ireland who complain about the fees all the time.

It’s just different. In the UK you get free state schools in posh neighbourhoods with fantastic facilities and great reputations, and mega house prices to boot. Or you pay for fully private, which costs an arm and a leg. Or if you are unlucky and live in an area with bad schools, you are stuck with those bad schools.

We’re more fortunate on all counts in Ireland, you can get to live close to any of the good free schools, with perhaps a few exceptions like Muckross. And private fees are in reach of middle income people should they so wish ( though not for much longer if the ideologues get their way)

[2Pack]

@FirstBass

And private fees are in reach of middle income people should they so wish ( though not for much longer if the ideologues get their way)

And if they want to change schools there wont be any of your Monkstown CBSs left.

[AWAAF]

@2Pack

@FirstBass

And private fees are in reach of middle income people should they so wish ( though not for much longer if the ideologues get their way)

And if they want to change schools there wont be any of your Monkstown CBSs left.

Do you mean Sion Hill, Oatlands, Marian, Colaiste Eoin/Iosagain, Muckross etc? Monkstown CBC (NB) is fee paying.

[peterpanican]

@2Pack

@FirstBass

And private fees are in reach of middle income people should they so wish ( though not for much longer if the ideologues get their way)

And if they want to change schools there wont be any of your **Monkstown CBSs **left.

Where?

If you are referring to CBC Monkstown. Yes Deputy Quinn is doing a bang up job helping to destroy schools like that. I predict half of fee paying schools will be gone by the end of the decade if this ill informed witchhunt continues with the Irish Times cheerleading it all the way. Enrollments are going through the floor. This has been the Irish Times pet for years and they have championed this debate for a long time. The IT have never looked properly at why some schools fail (LOCATION) and why others do well (LOCATION). There is a reason why public schools in South Dublin like Muckross and the two Coláiste’s do well, the IT ignore it and go on about fee paying schools.

If Blackrock College was in a spot of bother I have no doubt that Quinn would cease this though, how and ever with nearly 2000 pupils they are safe.

The result of these closures this will be:

• More expensive private schools than ever. These will not be eliminated, ever.
• The parents who spend their money currently on these schools but will be priced out in the future will continue to spend money on their children’s education in other ways (more grinds, more language trips ect) More Institute of Education type schools will open which will be very pricey but 2 year Leaving Cert grinds schools, again the “inequality” will continue in other ways.
• A worse public system with the Government footing the bill for the closures of fee paying schools
• Best teachers will now be plucked from the State system. The current system of all fee paying and public teachers being under the same Union agreements will be gone. We will get more Institute of Education type poaching with the now even more cashed up fee paying sector and grind schools, free from Government intervention, able to go after teacher with above Union rated salaries. Results, worse teachers in the public sector.

[yoganmahew]

@peterpanican

• Best teachers will now be plucked from the State system. The current system of all fee paying and public teachers being under the same Union agreements will be gone. We will get more Institute of Education type poaching with the now even more cashed up fee paying sector and grind schools, free from Government intervention, able to go after teacher with above Union rated salaries. Results, worse teachers in the public sector.

You were donig well until that. Perhaps the IoEs will steal, but the other private schools offer permanent positions and there just isn’t the demand for IoEs.

All the Irish teachers I had at the secondary I went to were rubbish. The science teacher was rubbish. Both the art teachers were ignorant bollixes - one by 50 years of teaching the same stuff, the other because I wasn’t any good and he wasn’t prepared to take an interest . The history/geography teacher was notoriously rubbish. Religious teaching was a farce and confirmed my atheism. One of the sports teachers took an inappropriate interest in boys in showers and was moved overseas.

What can I say? Private school in Ireland, an elite business…

[BlameGame]

@peterpanican

If you are referring to CBC Monkstown. Yes Deputy Quinn is doing a bang up job helping to destroy schools like that. I predict half of fee paying schools will be gone by the end of the decade if this ill informed witchhunt continues with the Irish Times cheerleading it all the way. Enrollments are going through the floor. This has been the Irish Times pet for years and they have championed this debate for a long time. The IT have never looked properly at why some schools fail (LOCATION) and why others do well (LOCATION). There is a reason why public schools in South Dublin like Muckross and the two Coláiste’s do well, the IT ignore it and go on about fee paying schools.

If Blackrock College was in a spot of bother I have no doubt that Quinn would cease this though, how and ever with nearly 2000 pupils they are safe.

The result of these closures this will be:

• More expensive private schools than ever. These will not be eliminated, ever.
• The parents who spend their money currently on these schools but will be priced out in the future will continue to spend money on their children’s education in other ways (more grinds, more language trips ect) More Institute of Education type schools will open which will be very pricey but 2 year Leaving Cert grinds schools, again the “inequality” will continue in other ways.
• A worse public system with the Government footing the bill for the closures of fee paying schools
• Best teachers will now be plucked from the State system. The current system of all fee paying and public teachers being under the same Union agreements will be gone. We will get more Institute of Education type poaching with the now even more cashed up fee paying sector and grind schools, free from Government intervention, able to go after teacher with above Union rated salaries. Results, worse teachers in the public sector.

This is all nonsense and strawmen. We’ve refuted this nonsense repeatedly in the other thread.
Irish Times is very soft on fee paying schools. It shows your shrillness that you object to them even having an article about it. And they’ve had several in support over the last while - see other thread for George hook, and the Belvedere guy.

This “witchhunt” is far from “uninformed”. You just don’t like it so you call it a witchhunt.

[yoganmahew]

@BlameGame

This is all nonsense and strawmen. We’ve refuted this nonsense repeatedly in the other thread.
Irish Times is very soft on fee paying schools. It shows your shrillness that you object to them even having an article about it. And they’ve had several in support over the last while - see other thread for George hook, and the Belvedere guy.

This “witchhunt” is far from “uninformed”. You just don’t like it so you call it a witchhunt.

Well, forgive us all if we take your views on education with a pinch of salt…

[BlameGame]

@yoganmahew

@BlameGame

This is all nonsense and strawmen. We’ve refuted this nonsense repeatedly in the other thread.
Irish Times is very soft on fee paying schools. It shows your shrillness that you object to them even having an article about it. And they’ve had several in support over the last while - see other thread for George hook, and the Belvedere guy.

This “witchhunt” is far from “uninformed”. You just don’t like it so you call it a witchhunt.

Well, forgive us all if we take your views on education with a pinch of salt…

It’s pretty mad that someone would put inequality in inverted commas on this. Two children who live beside a selective fee paying school. Both want to go. One gets to go. One doesn’t. There’s no inverted commas…that’s just inequality. State supported inequality.

[yoganmahew]

@BlameGame

Two children who live beside a selective fee paying school. Both want to go. One gets to go. One doesn’t. There’s no inverted commas…that’s just inequality. State supported inequality.

Two children live beside a totally state supported school with no fees. One gets to go, the other doesn’t. Why? One’s name was put down at birth, the other moved into the area later…

So what’s your point paleface? Pick a system. They’re all shit.