The Irish Water (meters) thread


#1695

How many people actually litter? I genuinely don’t know anyone who does. I don’t know anyone who tolerates it. Clearly somebody litters, and some people would have you believe that the only way to stamp out this outrageous behaviour would be to have a Consumer Packaging Metering System™ to account for every bit of litter you might produce? A dumb idea? Compared to information/education/enforcement, yes.


#1696

Huh? I’m not seeing the logic behind your thought process there. You understand that receiving a supply of water in to a household is close to effortless but receiving a constant supply of what will become rubbish/waste requires effort on the part of the litterer.


#1697

I think it might be the accent that they’ll take issue with as opposed to the correction. Try saying something like “Ah heore. Leave it ouh”

Report back how that goes :angry:


#1698

And that’s the reason I thought water charges (and property taxes) weren’t a bad idea

Of course the government managed to fuck both of those up


#1699

Quick Mod note - this thread is about water meters.

Please desist from personalising posts.

Please, please desist from feeling the need to drag it off topic.


#1700

Property taxes are at least progressive where you pay more tax on a higher valued asset. Water charges on the other hand aren’t progressive and have a massively disproportionate impact on the poor, while just being a very mild irritant to the wealthy. I fail to see how that’s a good idea.


#1701

+1

The poor should not be expected to pay for water, electricity or heating given the disportionate impact they has on their ability to afford necessities like smuggled smokes and booze :slight_smile:


#1702

You haven’t seen the gardens in the well-to-do part of Heidelberg in which I live. Those gardens don’t water themselves.


#1703

Like paying for food?


#1704

Wealthy people use far more electricity and oil/gas than poorer people. Often this is because they have far larger properties and are accustomed to a higher standard of living and can afford to pay the additional cost. Poorer people have no option but to lower their living conditions to reflect their inability to afford light and heat, even when it leads to ill health and hardship.

A family can’t make choices to restrict their water consumption below about 75 litres per person. Below that and serious hygiene issue start to emerge. Toilets need to be flushed, people need to shower etc. If you commodities water then it is inevitable that the poorest will suffer.

There is also an upper threshold where it’s not really possible to ‘consume’ more water despite a higher standard of living, not to the same degree as food, heat and electricity.


#1705

I accept none of this. A big garden will consume much more water in summer than a small family.
We are supposed to be avoiding criticising people because of their political affiliations but it is obvious where all this stuff is coming from.


#1706

Then have district metering and focus resources on conservation in areas with excessive consumption. Gardens shouldn’t be watered with drinking water when a rainwater harvesting system could easily provide for it. We already have regulations/legislation to limit excessive consumption if necessary during drought periods.

What stuff? What political affiliation? The Water Frameworks Directive?


#1707

Who’d enforce that and correct behaviour when the evidence has evaporated in to the summer sky.


#1708

The local authority wardens or even public shaming.
Water taxes are regressive.


#1709

you’ll see the wardens climbing over automated gates of mansions with high walls in D4 outside of working hours to enforce this?


#1710

Any data for any of this?

Some of the wealthiest people I know are far more parsimonious than those with less disposable income.

They’ve also paid way more tax than those on the average wage, not a mind to say the poorest, throughout their life.

Assuming by “commoditise water” you mean “meter water” (the topic of this thread) then according to the OECD “nearly two-thirds of OECD countries already (in 1999) meter more than 90% of single-family houses”
oecd.org/dataoecd/21/1/1934075.pdf

People, I know, who live in houses with poorly lagged/not deep enough pipes leave taps running constantly in the winter to prevent burst pipes.


#1711

Wealthier people spend twice as much as poor people do on energy.

Or did you want ‘data’ to show that when people can’t afford to heat their homes they lower their living conditions? Read up on ‘fuel poverty’.

And if that ‘excessive consumption’ was actually as a result of a burst pipe and it went unnoticed for a few months the household would have to pay a massive bill regardless of the hardship it might cause.

With district metering/monitoring it is very easy to spot excessive water consumption. You simply monitor the pressure drop after a main valve is closed. If it shows up excessive consumption then you simply reduce the supply to that area until the problem is resolved. It doesn’t have to be done on a single household basis to be effective.


#1712

I quoted, and answered, you point-by-point.

You selectively quoted me.

Selective quoting = end of discusssion.


#1713

I think this graph would only become relevant to the discussion when the State starts giving the energy that is consumed to all Citizens for free or at a highly discounted rate as was done in some middle eastern, Eastern European or South American countries where a litre of petrol is cheaper than a litre of water.


#1714

There are no taxes on food, except luxury foods.

But let’s look at the issue of food for a moment.

“People aren’t provided with free food, so why should they be provided with free water” - You often hear that one, particularly on the real hardcore right wing forums. You see some fools even ask if they should be provided with free Sky Sports.

A family has a choice that they can make when they buy food. While there is a lower limit below which they can’t feed themselves properly, there are a lot of things they can do to economise by buying sale items, avoiding meat, buying bulk ingredients, or even buying food that is beyond it’s ‘best before date’. Even still, it is a fact that today in Ireland many families do have to depend on charity to feed themselves.

Similar to energy consumption, families lower their standard of living if they can’t afford to feed themselves.

But how can a family economise with a monopolised metered water supply? When a family is on the breadline it’s not as if they can get water for their home elsewhere. It’s not as if they can buy it on offer, or in bulk, or make changes to their diet.

With regards electricity, I have no doubt that we will reach a stage within 20-30 years where it will be more cost effective to provide it for free and to simply pay for the cost of the distribution network from taxation. Our society will evolve to consider electricity not as a luxury, but actually a necessity, like water.