The Irish Water (meters) thread


#1775

Of course.

Your specific claim was that it was **already ** cost effective.


#1776

It mightn’t be cost effective for you, but for a new build home it is. The average electricity cost per year is €950 and over 20 years with 2℅ inflation that amounts to about €23k. And that’s ignoring the connection fee.

Anyway, I don’t particularly care about your judgement of it. It will happen regardless. My point was to show how the utility consumption charging model is doomed by disruptive tech and a shrinking captive pool of consumers.


#1777

Ok, factor in financing too. A mortgage is 3.5%-odd, inflation at 2%, leaves a real interest rate of 1.5%. There are several grants for improving gas boilers in homes and insulation and the like.

That is because when you sit down carefully and do the calculations the cost-benefit is positive under most assumptions.

You still haven’t shown that this is the case for powering your home from solar.


#1778

For it to be cost effective there needs to be economies of scale. If enough people buy them the cost will come down. Maybe the Government should set up some sort of board to facilitate this. An Electricity Supply Board as it were. Then maybe neighbors can link their system together in a kind of network to improve reliability. The financing costs for individuals will be high but maybe by having common ownership of the generating assets that can be addressed too.


#1779

Very good :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:


#1780

Nice plan. Is there any way we can insert a DOB company in it ? Could siteserv win a beauty contest for exclusive outsourced installation and maintenance contract.


#1781

Indeed. It’s hilarious because he (and you) doesn’t realise that our current system is explicitly opposed to what he describes. There is no way to get reimbursed for supplying solar electricity to the national grid. There is no REFIT for solar PV.

Every other country realised long ago that it makes sense to make full use of their grid except Ireland. It seems it has dawned on people here too.

<Mod edit: Please don’t make personal statements.>


#1782

irishtimes.com/opinion/lette … -1.3005756

IT letter - from a Pinster I believe


#1783

Is that Liam Ferrie of The Irish Emigrant?


#1784

Not actually a Pinster but he shares many of the convictions that are widely held here.

Yes.


#1785

Without meters we’ve no way of knowing where the leaks are occuring, so I was surprised that someone had estimated that 49% of leaks happen on the mains side of the meters/stop valves. So I checked and of course his figure is a misinterpretation.

irishtimes.com/news/environm … -1.2102787

So 49% of water is lost in leaks in total - not on the “mains side”.

Again quite reasonable sounding, if you think eliminating leaks on the mains side is free, and that 49% of leaks happen on the mains side. Every water system leaks. If you want one that’s up to day Dutch standards and leaking at 6% then you need to replace all our ancient pipes by spending some number of billions and of course need to make sure all your users have meters.

There’s not much point in spending an absolute fortune fixing the major leaks if there’s no way of detecting the multitude of cheaply fixed minor leaks in homes.

Water meter protesters - the Irish equivalent of Trump supporters?


#1786

+1 an all that. The whole discussion about “won’t pay” is ludicrous.


#1787

Abuse not needed.

The total amount of drinking water wasted in each Local Authority area is known, and the average is 49% across the State.

85-90% of that wasted water is lost by the local authorities before it gets to the consumer’s property. The remaining 10-15% is lost from within the consumer’s property, and this figure includes both domestic and commercial users.

The 1000 largest leaks would account for at least 20 million litres of water per day, enough to meet the needs of 200,000 people.

Detecting leaks is not difficult. It’s actually quite easy. It is done by continuously monitoring the consumption of water in different districts and investigating changes that occur. This investigative work can be done by monitoring pressure drops at night or by using sensitive acoustic devices to listen for the leaks within the pipework.

The amount of water lost through domestic leaks is relatively insignificant and can be addressed through information and education. It is not worth installing a metering system to save 5% of the water that is produced when it is far more cost effective to focus on where 45% of it is lost.

People don’t deliberately waste significant amounts of water.

@What Goes Up, pointing out that someone is factually wrong is not abuse. It is just normal discussion.


#1788

That’s exactly what Irish Water/Irish Times noted in the link I gave.

The letter I was referring to states

I don’t think he’s saying 51% of leaks occur on the customer side as that’s unlikely to be the case and more significantly would undermine his argument.

So it seems to me he’s likely taking the 49% estimate given by Irish water for water lost via leaks and claiming that’s the amount of water leaked on the main side. I.E. he’s claiming that 49% of total water put into the system is leaked on the mains side. Perhaps the letter was edited and lost some clarity.

But based on what’s in the text the premise of his argument is based on “49 per cent of leakage on the mains side of the system”, that seems wrong and therefore it’s possible his conclusions and calculations aren’t completely correct.


#1789

My understanding is that 42% of all treated drinking water is lost in the ‘mains’ distribution system, and 7% is lost in the consumer’s network (all domestic and commercial users). Domestic users make up 60% of all consumers so I think it is fair to say that approximately 4% of all the treated drinking water is lost/leaked by domestic consumers.

It makes no sense to install and maintain a metering and billing system to save 4% of the total water produced when it would be more cost effective to focus resources on replacing the water mains system where the real problems are.


#1790

COS are publishing “Domestic Metered Water Consumption” up to 2015 no later than 31 March

cso.ie/en/csolatestnews/stat … ecalendar/


#1791

Well spotted. That’ll be interesting.

I keep track of my water meter (by prising up the cover and shining a torch down every couple of weeks because Irish Water won’t permit people to use an electronic device to get the data), and it’s been interesting. We use about 300-350 litres/day, well below the average of 420-450 litres/day, and it’s been very consistent. If Irish Water wanted to assist people in finding leaks then they would make it possible for homeowners to monitor their water consumption in real time, but of course it has nothing whatsoever to do with saving water.


#1792

I find it disgraceful that Ryanair won’t allow passengers access to real-time airspeed data, forcing them instead to work out their own averages based on take-off and landing time.


#1793

I don’t think it is part of Ryanair’s business model to encourage passengers to take action that results in them travelling at a slower airspeed. Nor is Ryanair proposing to vary prices for individual passengers based on their airspeed. So there is no need for Ryanair’s passengers to know their airspeed. Irish Water on the other hand…


#1794

I’m not familiar with the particular model of meter but there may also be legitimate privacy or technical reasons for not allowing access. Should your neighbor be able to read you meter? If he sees you use an abnormally large amount of water will you have to become known as the local water hog, or do you reveal to all the neighbours that you have Crohn’s?

If the meters are not designed for electronic reading by the user then there may be a single key for all meters in an area. Having a unique key per premises may add significantly to the complexity and cost of the reading phase.

Etc etc.