The solution to global warming is more taxation

This is a reason so many governments signed up to the Kyoto protocol, an increase in tax revenue equals more opportunity to redistribute funds and get re-elected and there is a good sales pitch, you tell the tax payers its for their own good and they believe it…

The Greens are the best thing to happen to Fianna Fail. They can raise taxes and blame the Greens for it. Its a win-win for Fianna Fail.

Exactly as anticipated

This in the same week that school bus fees jumped 25%, metro north fell into jeopardy and parking fees were announced at train stations equivalent to a 1% jump in the basic tax rate.

Spot the contradiction anyone?

That would be like looking for a needle, in a needlestack.


Political suicide for the Greens.

Everyone loves the Greens until the invoice arrives.

oil has doubled and coal has more than doubled in the past year. but still people keep driving and staying warm. not acceptable. what we need is a carbon tax to change this behaviour because doubling prices had no impact.

no whinging people. carbon tax is a Green tax, a brand new good tax. we’ll keep the old taxes around as well, just in case we need them. :wink:

with carbon tax, everything that emits carbon gets taxed. your log fire, your car. your rotting grass clippings. your compost bin. your kids pony. your kids. your dog. you.

the good news is you only get taxed when you breath out. breathing in is still free…

Please, somebody, do away with these scientific and economic illiterates before they do away with us. :open_mouth:

*-- posted in error on a new thread – sorry Mods

Americans have reduced their mileage by a record amount in response to high petrol prices.

Yes, because Americans are used to cheap fuel. We on the other hand have already been taxed to hell on fuel. If cost can alter behaviour, the low hanging fruit has already been picked in Europe.

Now we’re into raising revenue from a captive audience.

As far as I can see I already pay tax on the one source of CO2 that I have any control over - The Car.

My heating and other electricity comes from the ESB, which is already expensive enough. I can’t use much less of the stuff, I can’t force the ESB to use greener sources, and I can’t switch to a provider that uses greener sources.

It’s just more cost, which means less money in the average Joe’s pocket, which means the recession will be deeper. The Greens get their one chance in government and they use it to piss off both their supporters and non supporters alike.

And all for what? So that we can stand in the middle of a swimming pool full of teenage boys and convince ourselves that just because we don’t piss in the pool that there’s no piss in the pool.


Did you read the bit about reducing VAT?

And you know… VAT being reduced.

What is it with the selective reading?

Some Pinsters lament that the FF-PD government allowed a property bubble to form, and choose to ignore that the Greens were pushing for a property speculation tax during the boom.

Some Pinsters complain about the government doing nothing to reduce Ireland’s dependency on oil, but recoil at ideas like a carbon tax which will help wean us off fossil fuel.

Some Pinsters note that the poor are struggling to pay gas/food/rent bills, but quite happily turn a blind eye to proposals to reduce VAT.

It seems some Pinsters are as prone to blinkered thinking as the VIs they oppose.

The carbon tax is a potential problem for the greens, as while they may envisage it as being revenue neutral, FF may have other ideas.

I think thats why people are ignoring the VAT reduction, they don’t believe it will happen

and as a pinster what’s your opinion?

There is no consensus here other than perhaps House prices and the global economy are in for a rough ride with Ireland in the Merde.

a consensus we love to see challanged in a rational argumentative fashion. but the cure? no consensus

left right and every shade in between represented with possible exception of FF who still think that there was no bubble and the fundamentals are sound.

what do you think?

eoinmn wrote:

The Greens pushed for lots of things in opposition. They pushed for politicians to answer questions rather than kick for touch with mumbling about tribunals being allowed to complete their work.

Their tune changed fairly sharpish when they got into government.
Nothing said before being in government counts for anything. EVER.

eoinmn wrote:

Explain how a carbon tax will wean us off fossil fuel.
Have the high levels of tax on petrol and diesel weaned us of cars that use Petrol and Diesel? Has the doubling of the cost of Oil in a year?

Carrot and Stick only works when you have a choice between the carrot and the stick. If you have no choice then you’re just beating people with a stick for the fun of it.

eoinmn wrote:

Not turning a blind eye to anything. More, I’ll believe it when I see it.
I wonder will the next VAT cut last more than a year?

eoinmn wrote:

Yeah, but it’s not so bad when your blinkered thinking is correct.


Exaclty, some… and thats a tiny some. I am against TAX as a means of behavioral control. Thats what it is, and you pay for the privilege too while having no control yourself.

I’ve proposed my alternatives many time and it does not included politicians or tax.

Why haven’t the Greens removed all tax on Bicycles?
I proposed this to them many years ago, simple thing really a great gesture of intent and good PR… just look around at the reality. Its not all roses.

it is hopelessly naive to see a carbon tax as anything other than a revenue raising exercise. no doubt that its introduction will be accompanied by temporary downward adjustments in other tax rates. that is just a fig leaf - by opening up a whole new principle of taxation we will pay more in new and horrible ways.

life is carbon based. if we accept the principle of this tax, there is no area of our lives that will be safe from the prying eyes and messianic zeal of Green government. there is nothing to stop them taxing small amounts of emissions at whatever rates they choose. compost tax (methane), pony tax (methane), cremation tax (CO2).

reductions in co2 emissions can only come through technologies that actually give people alternatives to fossil fuel use.
in france you can take an electric train supplied by low carbon nuclear instead of driving or flying. in ireland its pay the tax or fuck off.

So you are saying that people who disagree with you are just plain wrong by definition and hence must have an ulterior motive. What if the premises in your post are just wrong?

I do not believe that manipulating VAT helps “the poor” in any way. In fact I bleieve there should be one universal (but significanlty lower) rate with no exemptions.

I do not believe there is any necessity to “reduce dependence on oil”. Moreover the I believe the costs of trying to engineeer some outcome for energy production will make everyone worse off. Moreover, even if it was sensible, I generally need a lot of convincing that using the tax system as a policy instrument makes sense.

The only VI I possess is to support things that I think make sense, pure and simple.

Except I didn’t say or imply that.
I’m saying that I believe greener thinking will lead to a sustainable economy, rather than the boom and bust path we’ve been on.
And I’m saying I believe some Pinsters are too quick to ridicule the Green Party’s tax proposals, instead of thinking them through and making sensible arguments for/against them.
What I’ve seen on page 1 of this thread is just reactionary “OMG! More taxes… next it will be the air we breathe!!!1!!” nonsense.

That’s a fair point, but I don’t think the GP ministers are so foolish as to accept a carbon tax without some tax reduction elsewhere.