Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?


#12

From that news report.

Why is it being dropped?, it depends on who you ask I suppose.

Reading between the lines it appears that it may have been too successful at eliminating the stigma of unemployment and that some people realised that working for minimum wage jobs was a mugs game. Also UBI recipients are “bad consumers”, they buy very little, not good for business.


#13

All jobs are bullshit jobs, beyond a certain point. Some are just more obviously so than others.


#14

I blame farming. Once we figured out how to feed ourselves with the efforts of <5% of the population, we were on the slippery slope to Socialites and Cat Behaviour Consultants.

Also, what is “productive” anyway? And why don’t we organise ourselves to do more of those things right now? It’s not like we’re short of people or resources.


#15

Here’s another spanner to throw in the works. If you believe this, 10% of the population are not fit for any job, and never will be ( – summary points are in first 60 secs):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MJUhDQKJcY


#16

Private companies are generally extremely productive and can restructure to suit the working environment as time changes/things progress. The people that work for these companies are the productive workers. The are not a liability on the public. Government bodies/socialism/welfare etc are all items that or non productive and an expense on the general public. These items are paid for by taxing the private sector - eg the productive economy.
The lower the amount of expenses on the general public, the more money can be diverted to productive businesses etc. The more productive an economy is the wealthier the residents become. Taking Hong Kong for example.
*Hong Kong’s economic policy has often been cited by economists such as Milton Friedman and the Cato Institute as an example of laissez-faire capitalism, attributing the city’s success to the policy.
*
1 in 7 people in Hong Kong are millionaires with a similar population size. It’s a pity Ireland has taken such a socialist approach to things.
The EU (Germany) however seems to be forcing Irelands hand to have less government & liabilities etc, so slowly it’ll keep improving.


#17

I’m a fan of UBI as a way of massively simplifying the tax system & making casual work and the welfare system work together. We’ve already kind of done it in one respect, for children.

At the moment we have tax credits and then a complicated mish mash of if you earn less then this you get that and stuff.

Get rid of the lowest tax credit, give it out as UBI. (Bump up amount so that it’s a good but not huge amount) Reduce welfare payments accordingly. Flat tax at 20% ish from the first penny you earn all the way up to €30-€40k or thereabouts. Higher tax after that.

Most people working casual or part time then know exactly what’s getting deducted from their pay check. The uncertainty of moving away from unemployment benefit is greatly reduced because you’ll always have UBI coming in.


#18

Average new property price in HK is apparently 1.8m USD. That’s probably why they have a lot of “millionaires”.

Ireland might achieve the same if it contributes to fuck up its housing market thorough free market fundamentalism coupled with State-of-the-art controlled restrictive planning. That’s not socialism.

Anyway, wealth is not a measure of productivity. If I happen to have sat on 1000 bitcoins for a few years I am wealthy but not productive.


#19

Ideological twaddle.
So roads, electrification, health, policing, ports, safety regulation, quality standards are non-productive? Even though they contribute to productivity?

edit: education? Public hygiene? Let’s see how the lawless Darfur is getting on with it’s excellent capitalism… ah, it’s a shithole.


#20

Here’s Stefan Molyneaux talking about Finlands failed experiment with universal basic income

(havnt seen it yet, its on the to watch list)


#21

“Molyneux knows how to talk like he knows what he’s talking about, despite very little academic research.”

Wikipedia quote.

I have no idea what Molyneux’s lumbago has to do with the economics of UBI. He’s a crank.


#22

Wowsa. Thanks for helping me understand why some people freaked out about Obama’s ‘You didn’t build that’ speech (which was taken out of context, but still…). (Incidentally, he borrowed the gist of it from Elizabeth Warren)

To paraphrase, publicly-funded schools educated you and/or your staff; roads make distribution of goods possible; courts ensure rule-of-law; emergency services offer security, health…

Hard to believe this has to be spelled out.

I work in the private sector, by the way. I’m fierce productive except when distracted by people who are wrong on the internet.


#23

I never said these services are not required?

If I have the choice I would rather go to a private school, hospital etc. Why, because staff need to perform and are held accountable.
The most efficient way for these services to be provided is for government too act as an administrator and sub contract the services to private companies. The subbies will grow and shrink to suit demand. Reputation is important for companies.

Don’t fool yourself in thinking you’re not paying for these services. Half your salary is paying for public services. Imagine you could save that money and choose what school/hospital to send your kids etc.

Nothing more important than the productivity of an economy.


#24

Maybe it’s more of a small/big government argument ? Some things have to be publicly funded and managed (Police, Defence Forces, Courts, Oireachtas,…) but we choose to do this with many other things like hospitals, schools, roads (mostly),… Waste collection is an example of what was once publicly funded and is now private. My electricity bill is smaller now because it’s generation and billing is in the private sector - no?

Public sector has extreme inertia - look at collection of road tax and all the physical offices still staffed to post out little pieces of paper that Gardai must check - could simply be replaced with standing orders including the car registration in the meta data, this is collated into a database that ANPR can police and or an app for a Guard with a smartphone.

We need a public sector, no argument. But do we need one as big as the one we have?


#25

irishtimes.com/business/economy/bank-of-england-governor-mark-carney-assume-things-will-go-wrong-1.3629205

Governor of the Bank of England flags up this agenda quite regularly now. Including this in today’s Dublin speech after his Mansion house speech earlier in the year.


#26

those left behind the computerization of their industry, fear NOT.

the govt will expand the NGO sector as controlled opposition and/or facilitaors of nasty dehumanizing legislation to offer everyone a job.


#27

#28

Just to follow up on the Finnish experiment on UBI.

It appears that the UBI helped one of them to take a job that wouldn’t have paid enough to support them on its own and the other person was too skilled (expensive & old) to hold a full time job.
Was it a success, yes and no! Great for people at the low end of the skills range to earn money over the basic to improve their lives, not so much for the professional person.


#29

RTE reporting on Finland’s experiment here

rte.ie/news/business/2019/0 … ome-trial/


#30

Bit rich coming from RTE don’t ya think? They being the forerunners in Universal Basic Income. :angry: BD :-GC


#31

Just proves that the slavemaster mentality is strong amongst the elite, in a world of automation taking the labour of many millions of workers, they refuse to allow people to work part time and take a minimal waged job to supplement their income.

People are expected to “work” as their “work” produces a revenue stream at the top.

Money is the oil to the economy’s engine, it runs far better if you put the oil in the sump and let the engine pump it to the top in operation, than to leave it all at the top and leak down.

Before anyone asks “where does to money come from” to PAY the UBI, the same place it does now, magicked out of thin air. The only difference being is that it is spent into existence instead of lent into existence.