Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?


#21

“Molyneux knows how to talk like he knows what he’s talking about, despite very little academic research.”

Wikipedia quote.

I have no idea what Molyneux’s lumbago has to do with the economics of UBI. He’s a crank.


#22

Wowsa. Thanks for helping me understand why some people freaked out about Obama’s ‘You didn’t build that’ speech (which was taken out of context, but still…). (Incidentally, he borrowed the gist of it from Elizabeth Warren)

To paraphrase, publicly-funded schools educated you and/or your staff; roads make distribution of goods possible; courts ensure rule-of-law; emergency services offer security, health…

Hard to believe this has to be spelled out.

I work in the private sector, by the way. I’m fierce productive except when distracted by people who are wrong on the internet.


#23

I never said these services are not required?

If I have the choice I would rather go to a private school, hospital etc. Why, because staff need to perform and are held accountable.
The most efficient way for these services to be provided is for government too act as an administrator and sub contract the services to private companies. The subbies will grow and shrink to suit demand. Reputation is important for companies.

Don’t fool yourself in thinking you’re not paying for these services. Half your salary is paying for public services. Imagine you could save that money and choose what school/hospital to send your kids etc.

Nothing more important than the productivity of an economy.


#24

Maybe it’s more of a small/big government argument ? Some things have to be publicly funded and managed (Police, Defence Forces, Courts, Oireachtas,…) but we choose to do this with many other things like hospitals, schools, roads (mostly),… Waste collection is an example of what was once publicly funded and is now private. My electricity bill is smaller now because it’s generation and billing is in the private sector - no?

Public sector has extreme inertia - look at collection of road tax and all the physical offices still staffed to post out little pieces of paper that Gardai must check - could simply be replaced with standing orders including the car registration in the meta data, this is collated into a database that ANPR can police and or an app for a Guard with a smartphone.

We need a public sector, no argument. But do we need one as big as the one we have?


#25

irishtimes.com/business/economy/bank-of-england-governor-mark-carney-assume-things-will-go-wrong-1.3629205

Governor of the Bank of England flags up this agenda quite regularly now. Including this in today’s Dublin speech after his Mansion house speech earlier in the year.


#26

those left behind the computerization of their industry, fear NOT.

the govt will expand the NGO sector as controlled opposition and/or facilitaors of nasty dehumanizing legislation to offer everyone a job.


#27

#28

Just to follow up on the Finnish experiment on UBI.

It appears that the UBI helped one of them to take a job that wouldn’t have paid enough to support them on its own and the other person was too skilled (expensive & old) to hold a full time job.
Was it a success, yes and no! Great for people at the low end of the skills range to earn money over the basic to improve their lives, not so much for the professional person.


#29

RTE reporting on Finland’s experiment here

rte.ie/news/business/2019/0 … ome-trial/


#30

Bit rich coming from RTE don’t ya think? They being the forerunners in Universal Basic Income. :angry: BD :-GC


#31

Just proves that the slavemaster mentality is strong amongst the elite, in a world of automation taking the labour of many millions of workers, they refuse to allow people to work part time and take a minimal waged job to supplement their income.

People are expected to “work” as their “work” produces a revenue stream at the top.

Money is the oil to the economy’s engine, it runs far better if you put the oil in the sump and let the engine pump it to the top in operation, than to leave it all at the top and leak down.

Before anyone asks “where does to money come from” to PAY the UBI, the same place it does now, magicked out of thin air. The only difference being is that it is spent into existence instead of lent into existence.


#32

Labour would trial universal basic income if elected, John McDonnell says

Shadow chancellor says pilot schemes would be held in Liverpool, Sheffield and the Midlands

Labour would trial universal basic income if it wins power, shadow chancellor John McDonnell has revealed.

Pilot schemes would be held in Liverpool, Sheffield and the Midlands, [McDonnell told the Mirror]

The plan would do away with the need for welfare as every citizen would be given a fixed sum to cover the basics whether they are rich or poor, in work or unemployed.

McDonnell said people can spend the money how they like, but it is intended for study, to set up a business or leave work to care for a loved one.

The concept has been around since at least the 1960s and was raised in the 1972 US presidential election, followed by the introduction of a UBI scheme called the Manitoba Basic Income Experiment in Canada in 1975.

In the UK, charity Citizen’s Income Trust has been encouraging debate for 35 years.

But some critics fear UBI would be too expensive, including John Kay, former director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies.
“If you do the numbers, either the basic income is unrealistically low or the tax rate to finance it is unacceptably high. End of story,” he said.

But McDonnell is convinced of the benefits. “The reason we’re doing it is because the social security system has collapsed. We need a radical alternative and we’re going to examine that.

“We’ll look at options, run the pilots and see if we can roll it out. [If you look at the Finland pilot] it says it didn’t do much in terms of employment but did in terms of wellbeing – things like health. It was quite remarkable.

“The other thing it did was increase trust in politicians, which can’t be a bad thing.”

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/may/12/labour-would-trial-universal-basic-income-if-elected-john-mcdonnell-says


#33

Given the dramatic news reported by RTE, and the aggressive timelines, has this issue barely been discussed in this election cycle. Seems like quite an oversight, after all huge swathes of people staying home every day, may make carbon targets around transport a moot point.

Next election sounds like it will be too late, no

> Two out of five jobs at high risk of automation - study

**
https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0222/1032052-two-out-of-five-jobs-at-high-risk-of-automation-study/

Robots will handle over 50% of work tasks by 2025 - WEF report

https://www.rte.ie/news/technology/2018/0917/994231-world-economic-forum/


#34

Theres a whiff of d’oul Arbeit Macht Frei about this, right enough…