VietNAMA - POLL For or Against?

Do you back NAMA proposal by the Irish Government?

  • NO
  • YES

0 voters

For or against?

Personally I am for pulling out of VietNAMA.

Why consign our children’s future to the waste ground of this viciously silent war.

A qualified yes.

The two qualifications are realistic price and transparency.

Unfortunately, I don’t think we will see either.

There are other things I would like to see:

  • a semi-private company where existing bank debt-holders take a writedown of their debt in exchange for equity in the new vehicle. From the viewpoints of transparency, price discover and sharing the pain of their bad bets.
  • a long-term refinance plan for residential mortgages (a separate issue, but related) so that there is a move from variable interest rates to long-term fixed ones, a move to non-recourse mortgages, and again debt-for-equity swaps to reduce outstanding debt.
  • a separation of investment and retail banking. Specific banks should be set up for C&D/Commercial, residential mortgages, the bank clearing system (I believe this should be largely state owned and managed), investment mortgages, retail banking and the life and stock-broking arms of the banks should be spun off to entirely separate companies (again with existing debtholders getting equity in the new companies in return for debt reduction). So break up the big banks.
  • the governments role should be to set up rules, enforce them and stop distoring markets with tax incentives, restrictions on new entrants.
  • the use of personal pension plans to reduce outstanding debt on individuals’ mortgages

In short, a comprehensive plan for debt and banking in Ireland, and future pension and savings provision (I believe the two are inextricably linked).

There is no qualified YES’sesess. In this case you have only the option Vote NO if not you have balls’d up your vote YMH!!!

We are not going to change this NAMA. In this case NAMA is as NAMA does. Thats what you are voting on!
So I hope you voted NO!!! or else you fucked up the poll too :smiling_imp:

I remain hopeful that the implementation will be different to the plan as announced.

When else has the government ever actually managed to put in place what it said it would?

HOPE? What curve are you sniffing!

The “who’s Laffer-ing now” curve.

Despite what the psycho-babbleologists tell us, I think it is possible to be both pessimistic and hopeful.

Absolutely NO, I have said before here that the only way I would support a “bad bank” would be if it were administered by the ECB or IMF, Ireland Inc. is too deeply mired in gombeen politics for the government to manage this, ministers send pleading letters for rapists and convicted killers, what will they do for their FRIENDS. If there was a clear cut choice for the banks, either sell the assets at less than 50% to NAMA or live with them, then it might work but already they are arguing about valuations and the state guarantee remains a strong bargaining chip for the banks. The terms of reference for NAMA should include that it will only purchase assets at a maximum of 50% of bank book value, based on an independant valuation of 60-70% of bank book. Or that it will purchase assets at a 20% discount on independant valaution again only on assets which are valued at a maximum of 70% of book.
As it is the governemnt is already saying they will buy at 'valuation", where is the discount for the taxpayer. This is a sham and will almost certainly bankrupt Ireland, only ECB or IMF support cna keep the country afloat by 2011 IMO, maybe allot sooner.

No way Jose. Didn’t the Central Bank Governor Mr Hurley come into the Public Accounts Hearing and say that “He Had Well STRESS Tested the Banks.” Using a very special Stress Testing Formulae. Didn’t the Banks say that they has little or no Toxic Assetts. Then they said that they had about 10 billion or 12 billion. Now they are saying what was in a Paper today - 110 Billion. It this Pure Madness!! Why was the Governor or the Central Bank of Ireland - Not Doing His Job!. Where was Mr Neary the Financial Regulator. He said there were no problems here. Everything was “Under Controll”. The amounts of Bad Liabilities of the Banks is going from 10 Billion to 110 Billion in one month. Now that there will be some sort of Bailout of the Ship. We will all find ourselves in the Hold. Bailing out the water and manning the pumps. The Banks themselves are well capable of managing their affairs and stearing their Ships and their Cargoes. This is their business. Debits and Credits and making money out of other peoples money. Assetts and Liabilities. Do the people of Ireland wish to become the liabilities of the Banks?

No on the basis that I have no clue what is really going on. I would support the general concept, but wthout a lot of clarity I cannot give my support to what is currently on offer. Ask me again when there are real and detailled proposas available.

how can u vote yes for something when brian doesnt even know the cost of his latest blunder? 10 bn-100bn? :angry:

His latest blunder was to give the price - 50 bn. Anything saying it was a ‘for-example’ figure is spin, IMO.

50 bn gives a purchase price of 45 bn for the loans (so a haircut of 40-50% depending on whether 80 or 90 bn assets are bought) with 5 bn in working capital to lever the yoke up and account for the repo haircut to the ECB, so NAMA will start solvent on a commercial basis. I don’t believe there is anything really being discussed with the banks except whether it is 80 or 90 bn of assets, i.e. they are down to the last devilish detail. Mr. Lenihan, Mr. Ryan and Mr. Boyle between them can no more keep a secret than a six-year old.

Anytime Governments interfer into mkts there is always tears…

No is my answer, because we will pay too much for it and it is too early in the cycle…

No.

There will be no transparency, and far too much opportunity for the very same people that got us into this mess to profit from it. Peter Bacon’s performance on PrimeTime was incredible: the little man may not know what is going on or for how much, but it is perfectly acceptable for the little man to pay for it.

I can’t see myself hanging around to pay for the largesse of a few deluded bankers,developers and friends of Fianna Fail who gorged themselves on credit. The whole budget tinkering with levies was a smokescreen for this, imho.

I think I’m against it, because I can’t figure, and may be missing, in coverage of this plan is exactly why it’s so crucial that the banks start lending again. I mean, I’ve digested all this stuff about the necessity for credit for our industry to power sell its tremendous products abroad. But if 90% of our exports come from the FDI sector, presumably they do not depend on or particularly seek credit from our banks.

The firms that are depended on our banks for finance are (as we’re discovering to our cost) either property firms or mickey mouse service companies that don’t trade internationally. Hence, the idea that “We have strong companies with strong products and strong markets” only waiting for banks to start lending again to compete abroad is just wrong. If Irish banks start lending again, will they not be lending to much the same people? I honestly don’t see what this NAMA thing achieves, apart from transferring risk and losses from banks and developers to the taxpayer.

Now, if the State wanted to fund an SME liquidity scheme, and contracted out the administration to Rabobank, NIB or whatever bank offered the best deal, then I’d have no problem whatsoever. I don’t understand why its so crucial to spend maybe €50 billion effectively buying properties at a higher price than the market would pay for them.

Bang on Jabaar. How could we have any confidence this will be done right? This government has no mandate. What will it take for them to do the right thing and resign?

No as we will gt nothing back and I mean nothing, even if they sold some of this stuff for a profit in twenty years it will have been a waste of funds that could have been used for the public good. F*** them let them sink (the banks that is and keep one just to service the economy or whats left of it).

I have read Mcwilliams latest article thepost.ie/ezineSBP/story.asp?storyid=40982

To summarise either the banks and developers will take the brunt of it or the taxpayer will depending on what price is paid for the assets. With this Government in power I think I know what the outcome will be.

NO.

It’s a scam, and it will end up only being run for the benefit of the already-connected in this mafioso state.

I never cease to be amazed at the otherwise intelligent people who, despite decades and deacdes of uniform experience, somehow manage to convince themselves that this time Fianna Fáil won’t rape them. Time to stop believing in fairy stories, kids.

More fundamentally though, even if it wasn’t a scam to abil out the builders, it is trying to solve the wrong problem. Our entire political and media and business class has one economic policy and one only: High Property Prices, which fuels the take up of megadebts, which the populace spend on bling, and which also keeps them fearful and compliant and easily exploited. Nice little racket for all concerned.

This is what they consider “normal” and “desirable”, and this is the state of affairs they are trying to get back to. And all their actions over the last year have been simply them clutching at straws to try and reinflate the bling bubble. They have no other ideas, they have no other policies, they just don’t understand where it all went wrong…and they never will.

As a final aside, the joke doing the rounds up this end of the country this morning is that during the boom southern Cannys bought up huge swathes of south and west Belfast…on megamortgages which are now toxic…issued by southern banks…now being transferred to NAMA…so…

Yes folks, the taxpaying citizens of the Republic are now the proud owners of most of the Shankill, Village and Sandy Row!

With this being administered by the same gang of crooks that allowed the vested interest cabal to run our economy into the ground since '97 I have no hope that it will do the right thing.

The bad bank idea is all well and good, but I can see the banks and developers being left off the hook. Taxpayers having to make up the shortfall, and the same cowboys will be allowed to continue as before. I’m also betting that NAMA will sell back the repossesed lands to the same developers who the land was taken from at knock down prices.

Why couldn’t they just let the bloody banks go to the wall? Then the foolishness of the developers who borrowed loads, and the banks who lent to developers, and the money markets who carelessly threw around the cash in the first place would be punished. Governments could then have set up a new clean banking system and the system could continue. Instead the same crooks are allowed continue their casino capitalism and the have-nots and the prudent are being punished.

Answer your own question?