Why isn't electricity cheaper?


#895

It costs €120 a year to tax a Nissan Leaf, no VRT won’t last forever but by the time its removed battery costs will be lower

The article was already posted in the Tesla thread, you need to watch out for anti Tesla/EV articles a lot of the time someone is putting their thumb on the scales to make Tesla/EVs look bad

thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=63977&start=1440


#896

thanks owenm for the responses.

The electricty generation and distribution network will no doubt evolve. though at a time with increased demand being put on the network especially the push to roll out electric vehicles, that it is odd that two power plants are being shutdown/taken offline. The electricity has to be generated somehow to power electric cars.

The high speed chargers are the equivalent of powering 3 toasters, designing a power supply to even power eight toasters going at it full blast is not for the faint-hearted. If we end up with 2 million electric vehicles then we need to have a power system that can deliver 6 GW of juice. the system demand at the moment is 5.2 GW ercrt.ucd.ie/

The cost of fuel for 200 km journey in an electric car is €5 , whereas for petrol its €20. Does anyone think that the taxes on petrol/diesel wont be transferred to electricity?


#897

This is practically/politically difficult since there’s no way to differentiate between different uses of electricity.

It makes more sense to apply the taxes to generation where the fuel sources can be discriminated.


#898

That won’t make any difference as far as the consumer is concerned. Electricity supply is an integrated market. If expensive electricity has to be purchased by the retail suppliers (whether or not that expense is due to high taxes on “dirty” generators), the costs will get passed on to end consumers.

There’s a much simpler objection though. Government will not forego the revenue currently raised from fuel taxes. It will tax whatever it needs to in order to make up a shortfall from declining ICE usage.


#899

But it may not be able to tax electric car usage specifically, so it’s either 1k a year road tax for EVs (which goes completely against the supposed principles of the current regime) or they’ll have to find it from non-motoring taxes.


#900

I think the key word there is supposed. :smiley:


#901

But he has been wrong about pretty much everything

But its clearly not as hard as the naysayers claim, the video below shows the largest Tesla Supercharger in Norway, 20 stalls, China has a 50 stall charger, Tesla already have 8 stall Superchargers in Ireland, they must not be faint-hearted

It will be a long time before we reach 2 million EVs on the road, it won’t be a problem


#902

Some people would call that sort of handwaving at the inevitability of progress “naive technological optimism”.


#903

With all the technology available and the fact that most EVs appear to have gps systems and internet connectivity, it’s a simple move to log journeys and “road price” them.
Plus simple to to make it mandatory to install such tracking devices in all future vehicles.


#904

I presume you’re kidding. First you have to standardise them. Then you have to make them tamper proof. Then you have to deal with the civil liberties people screaming blue murder about trackability. Doable, maybe. Simple it definitely isn’t.


#905

Tolls are simple. Incidentally rather than automatically tracking


#907

And every car would be clocked before the NCT


#908

Surely there must be a way to fit a device to a vehicle showing how much Electricity it has used over period, then just charge a higher rate of tax for the corresponding amount of electricity used.


#909

We only tax vehicle fuel indiscriminately because it’s convenient to do so. A discriminating system would probably attempt to discourage congestion or attempt some other sort of behaviour change, but the most likely solution is the thing that requires the least technology to implement and provokes the least popular resistance.


#910

I was wrong that Lithium ev’s couldn’t be made without cobalt, I stand corrected. They are however not as good as one’s without. My other two points are still valid. Namely that subsidies and hidden costs don’t make it cheaper and that burning carbon to produce electricity to charge batteries that push EV’s doesn’t reduce carbon footprint, or if it does then it is marginal and not a game changer. EV’s do have a future but we won’t all be driving Tesla’s in 5 or even 50 years and have saved the planet unless cobalt free batteries are used and most of our electricity is from renewables.

It makes just as much sense to produce octane from renewable electricity and use that in an ICE, no grid upgrades or charging stations and less co2 from production and destruction of cars without batteries, but that’s just blue sky thinking.
geek.com/news/german-compan … 2-1609987/


#911

You think that burning natural gas in an efficient turbine to charge an EV is a bad idea but you support wasteful schemes like the one above, you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about


#912

Lets leave cost and everything else out of it and focus on the one thing we need to change to have a habitable planet in 100 years, Climate Change.

Putting sequestered carbon back into our atmosphere is the single first principle reason we have climate change. True or False?
Burning natural gas in an efficient turbine to charge an EV puts sequestered carbon back into our atmosphere. True or False?
The scheme I linked to, if commercialized, would cycle atmospheric carbon through ICE’s and not add to atmospheric carbon. True or false?

The wasteful scheme as you call it, is really a research project and might actually be the answer if 1/10th of the R&D gone into EV’s was made available to it, no? You put these new refineries beside the existing ones and you have your liquid distribution network in place for free, a tiny fraction of the grid upgrades, no charging points. You do however need the generation capacity.


#913

Points one and two are easy, look at lorry tachographs as an example(very difficult to tamper with and get away with it), as for civil liberties, think mobile phone, your own personal tracking system happily carried around by the vast majority of users.
Simple it is!


#914
  1. Although the tacho requirements relate to the vehicle type rather than the use, driving an HGV is a job. We put all sorts of restrictions on people doing jobs that don’t apply when doing the same activity on their own time.
  2. Smartphones are opt-in.

#915

It’s no different from fitting a tag to pay the tolls at the M50 and other toll gates, as for smart phones being opt in, you’ll find that most people opt in to use the services provided and accept the tracking.
It would also be easy to flood the country with ANPR systems to track journeys for revenue collection purposes.