Will Ireland's corporation tax survive?


#545

I wonder whether I can get Datalex to mow my lawn.


#546

Apple Mk3 is an evil scumbag company. That is quite separate from what tax rate they pay. Apple is the company that does all the utterly evil things that Microsoft always wanted to do but could never quite get away with.

As Apple have upwards of $300B and very high net margins because they fuck over their supply chain and use close to slave labor in manufacturing I dont think paying 25% tax would have made much difference to their predatory ways.

Funny how those big evil US oil companies end up paying 25%/30% effective US corp tax rates. Get rid of tax scams like Ireland and even Apple would end up paying at least 15%/20% even with huge effort expended by legal in tax avoidance. Make corp tax single rate 25% and even thieving scumbags like Apple would pay up.

Strangely enough the industrial sector that pays the lowest effective tax rate in the US is - government / state regulated utilities. And its not because they dont make a very healthy ROI. Regulatory capture from top to bottom. With the politicians being the prime movers in the institutional corruption. Behind every single piece of idiotic tax law in the US is a populist politician on the make.


#547

The Irish company that is mistaken for/confused with my multi-national company will mow your lawn with eastern european labour, no personal safety equipment pushing domestic lawnmowers. Will that do?


#548

Has anyone got a link to the specific details of the ‘exemption’? Has it been published?


#549

You made an *empirical *conclusion from an *anecdotal *experience.

You still haven’t backed it up with evidence. So still tripe.


#550

apple.com/ie/customer-letter/

I am actually in agreement with Apple, this seems to be a powergrab by the European Commission

Either member states can set their own tax policy or they can not. The repercussions here are a bit larger than 13 billion.


#551

It’s referenced in the EC press release and I believe the docs are somewhere in this thread or the Apple one. Basically, Apple sold all its stuff in Europe through Apple Sales International. So if you bought something in the UK you were actually paying the Irish company and Apple paid no UK corporation tax on it. But when this was being set up, Apple requested comfort from the Revenue that ASI would only be taxed on its Irish revenue. Sales from other countries were “attributed to a head office” that didn’t exist in any real substantive form. Therefore Revenue allowed Apple to pay no tax on most of its sales. Revenue seem to have agree to this to protect a few factory jobs in Cork.


#552

Dipole, you seem to unaware of the labour market in Ireland and what you are saying doesn’t even make sense. There are thousands and thousands of well-paid people in Ireland working for multinationals such as Apple, LinkedIn, Facebook, IBM, Microsoft, HP, Xerox etc. etc. etc. as well as for all the pharmas. These are people ranging from IT developers, project managers, architects, lawyers, accountants, engineers, quality managers, chemists etc etc. And there are also lower paid semi-skilled roles at these companies. There are many high-skilled roels available and such a shortage of highly-skilled candidates that many people come from EU countries and further afield to take up roles here. Without the quota of extra workers coming in from India, Brazil etc every year many skilled roles here could not be filled (although for sure the gates should not be opened wide to non EEA staff). Wages for most skilled roles are relatively high compared to many parts of Europe and certainly not a pittance as you claim. If they were a pittance as you claim why would people be coming here or why would there be shortages of candidates here for many skilled roles?

Maybe you worked on the bottom rung of the IT ladder (localisation or desktop support) and are generalising from a very limited experience of the overall market here.


#553

But should they be free to ignore their own tax law/regulations?


#554

In relation to the ruling I imagine that the appeals will drag on and I would be surprised if Ireland gets even a quarter of the amount deemed owed in the end.

Also the EU seems to be actively inviting other countries to send tax bills to Apple for product sold in their jurisdictions. If I was in Revenue in the UK, Germany, etc. even the US, I would certainly be sending a tax bill to Apple, on the basis of this.


#555

I worked in multiple roles and I’m well over twice as well paid doing the same job I did in the same company as I worked for in Ireland.
thousands??? quantify that in tax terms. thousands of well paid jobs equals exactly how many hundred million of income tax. 5000 people paying 20,000 income tax per annum equals 100m which doesn’t go a very long way.

As for Skippy’s insults about my posts being tripe;
If I see rain washing cars away then I say it is a flood but that is an anecdote and must be tripe.
I’ve worked for a number of multi-nationals with co-workers extending in to the high hundreds and see none of them outside a tiny few higher up are on good wages and I say multi-nationals simply do not pay well for the calibre of staff they employ and that is anecdotal tripe despite the fact that there are no good cars in the staff car park and co-workers are getting mortgages which are a multiple meagre wages to purchase very humble houses in dublin and commuter towns surrounding it.

So who amongst us has lived the more sheltered life with a distorted view of the benefits of Multi-nationals to Irish society, me or my critics.


#556

The government (and Apple) are quite persistent in their claim that no law was broken.

Would it not be up to Irish courts to decide this? or have we lost that power too??


#557

But they weren’t paying tax as per policy/law

Would you be happy with a competitor getting a sweetheart tax deal ?


#558

my former company would have been their competitor in a specific product area at the time and not that I’d have been party any agreements behind closed doors don’t believe we’d have had those favourable agreements.


#559

I see your point (Assuming that law was actually broken in which case its a job for OUR courts/Revenue to pursue not the EU) and having paid (and continue to pay) corporate tax at 12.5% it sucks that “big boys” get a different treatment.

But on the other hand Apple do bring jobs to the country, were here for a long time, and I clearly remember all the promises made during Lisbon(s) that our tax policy will be untouched by the EU.


#560

It’s a top story on a lot of sites. Partly people want to kick apple and it’s a slow day worldwide.

In terms of Heads rolling in FG and the Revenue - how exactly can they parrot on to the electorate about protecting the 12.5% tax rate while charging such a tiny effective rate ?
Surely someone has to walk ?


#561

they drove out my former company which employed hundreds in Ireland and many others. I think back on all our competing companies, some which had a presence in Ireland, many which did not and they were steamrollered over by Apple but that is just anecdotal evidence and not appreciated by some around here.


#562

Our tax policy is untouched. They’re just asking us to enforce it?

The EU is trying to stop the beggar thy neighbour tax shenanigans that you see in the US where one specific company gets certain breaks to move to x city/state.

Tax policy should be fair. Telling Apple they can book sales through ASI and have a deal that only a portion those sales subject to tax is not fair to someone doing it by the book


#563

I remember one of our prime competitors who were getting really good traction in the market and very positive feedback in the media for a few years; They’re French and if only they had been able to negotiate a similar under the table deal with the French Tax Authorities then maybe they’d be a household name, not Apple. They were later to market than us but earlier than Apple.

You can’t engage in illegal state aid without other E.U. members taking offence.

Some people would like to present what was done as a victimless crime. Competitors were put at a disadvantage, went out of business, other Countries collected less tax with their captive citizens paying more and Apple and Ireland Inc. continued on their merry way.


#564

Lets cut out the anecdotal evidence on rely on easily accessible information.

You mentioned Microsoft explicitly earlier. A quick search will show them advertising approx 80 roles on LinkedIn alone currently for Dublin ie.linkedin.com/jobs/microsoft-jobs. If you look through the job titles and know anything about the Irish jobs market you will see that most of these will be relatively high-paying jobs (in the range €50-100k). I have no inside knowledge of Microsoft but based on advertised vacancies it is easy to extrapolate that they alone will employ several hundred relatively high paid staff.

It is easy to estimate that the many multinationals here will be employing tens of thousands of highly-paid staff along with tens of thousands of semi-skilled staff, and these jobs support many thousands more in infrastructure and support services. All businesses and employees paying VAT to the state. Its an important part of the economy and certainly corporate tax receipts alone are not all of the big picture.

It would certainly be great if we could have this employment and economic spinoffs and also decent corporate tax from the sector, and sweetheart deals such as the Apple deal look ridiculous. But the bottom line that has to be worked out is how much of the corporate tax revenue of multinationals with tax bases here is by rights due here and not by rights due to sales and economic activity in other countries.